Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

Given that some Tyseley pics followed my guess at Old Oak was wildly wrong, thank you to Brian and Dave for putting me right. Meanwhile a map courtesy of the NLS with an added red arrow for the location of the picture taken.




In connection with this, from somewhere deep in my mental filing cabinet I think that the NUR wouldn't work ex GWR Toad brakevans off the Western Region because of the conditions the guards were exposed to when working verandha first. This may well be a misimagined memory however can anyone provide any further evidence pro or con?

Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Roger - thank you for kicking the detailing and correction of the German shots off. Thank you Yorkshire Dave and David for completing the details and the reminiscences. Always valuable things those personal memories and become part of the history when written down. Actually, now I know the answer and rechecking the first of the photos of the double headed 2-10-0s it's obvious that the leading loco is not 012 080-8 - look at that kink at the front of the running plate which is clearly not present on the leading 2-10-0.

Thank you for getting the ball rolling on the unknown location, Martin. You may not have been correct this time but it's always worth a shot and you've made a remarkable recovery with that map! Thanks for your response to that one, Adam, and then Brian (smashing photo!) and Yorkshire Dave.

Then Arun. That info on the 9F was unknown to me so will be a useful addition to the data attached to the photo.

More photos will follow - perhaps today after I've done the vegetables but if not very early next week. Continuing thanks for the interest in these photos. There's colour shots of blue diesels in the stash so this thread could ultimately appeal to an even wider audience but they'll have to wait their turn.

Happy and Healthy New Year to all.

Brian

 

[mickoo]

Thank you for the DB pictures, Brian. I would venture that the double headed train is hauled by a pair of Br 44 locos. These are 2-10-0 heavy goods locos and although the driving wheels are pretty well obscured by steam there does appear to be a greater gap between the top of them and the running plate than there is on the Br 012. This is only a guess on my part which someone may be able to correct, but the use of Br 01 variants on a mineral train such as this is, I would hazard, somewhat unlikely.

My thanks again.

Roger

Yes, they are Br 44 Öl - DB Umbau Br 043.

BR 043 - oil
BR 044 - coal

Likewise

BR 041 - coal
BR 042 - oil

and

BR 011 - coal
BR 012 - oil.

 

[Lancastrian]

In connection with this, from somewhere deep in my mental filing cabinet I think that the NUR wouldn't work ex GWR Toad brakevans off the Western Region because of the conditions the guards were exposed to when working verandha first. This may well be a misimagined memory however can anyone provide any further evidence pro or con?

Regards
Martin

Martin,

I heard that ex-GWR brake vans were banned from the other regions because they only had one means of entry/egress.

Ian

 

[AJC]

Martin,

I heard that ex-GWR brake vans were banned from the other regions because they only had one means of entry/egress.

Ian

They were certainly taken out of revenue service, yes. The most authoritative account I've come across is this, from Mike Romans on the other channel: When were the GWR Toads last used?.

They went from general traffic in '65 but hung around with the engineers for a long time afterwards.

Adam

 

[Barry37]

They were certainly taken out of revenue service, yes. The most authoritative account I've come across is this, from Mike Romans on the other channel: When were the GWR Toads last used?.

They went from general traffic in '65 but hung around with the engineers for a long time afterwards.

Adam

This is my photo of Bristol East Yard, taken in the early 1980s. Apart from BR standard brake vans, and a Shark Plough Brake, there is an SR "left-hand ducket" brake van, and an SECR "Dance Hall" brake van. To the right of these, there's a GWR Toad van that appears to be in Olive green engineers' livery. The connection to the sidings on the other side of the mainline seems to have recently been taken OOU.

 

[michael080]

The German photos for today follow the one of 012 080-8 above so are probably the train being double headed by that loco. Location remains Rheine - Emden in March 1974.

The engines are actually BR44s pulling the famous "Erz-Zug" transporting iron ore from the port in Emden to the blast furnaces of the Ruhr valley. Having 4000 tons, they were the heaviest trains that were ever pulled on the German rail system. The line between Rheine and Emden was not yet electrified and the Diesel engines were not capable of pulling this heavy load.
Only two oil burner 44s (043 as mentioned) were capable to provide the necessary power. A fireman wouldn't be able to feed the necessary amount of coal into the firebox.

There is a very interesting book "Eisenzeit" from Wolfgang Staiger. Mr. Staiger was a student of photography at that time who worked as a fireman to earn money for his education. He was actually working the trains that are shown above. The book is famous for its phantastic pictures, but also very interesting because of the insight it provides. One of my all time favourite railway books.

Interesting side note: The southbound loaded trains were easier to pull than the empty northbounds, because they were a solid load rather than bouncing empty wagons.

I've always been wondering if the DB BR44 would be a match for the BR 9F. The ratings are not easily comparable, but I found that the tractive effort of the 9F was 177kN, where as the BR44 had a starting traction effort of 340kN. But then, is the 9F number "starting" or "continuous" traction effort?

Michael

edit: forgot to mention that two 44s had to pull these trains

 

[Len Cattley]

I think if you double-head them you might have enough track effort (I might be wrong though).

Len

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks now to Mick for clarifying the classes for me, Michael for providing some real detail about that working, and Len for a suggestion which may or may not have worked out in practice.

Then to Ian, Adam and Barry for more about GWR Toads. Having given due consideration I don't remember ever having seen them other than on ex-GWR lines.

Manor 7813 Freshford Manor in Tyseley Shed on an unknown date, again estimated to be between March and May 1961 now confirmed between May and August 1961). This was last seen in Old Oak in post #860 although the shot was undated. The shed plate looks like 84E, Tyseley. and it was allocated there between November 1960 and November 1962 when it moved to Reading, then Swindon, Gloucester Horton Road and finally Didcot in March 1965 from where it was withdrawn in May the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped in the following July at Birds Morriston. (Rail UK).



Hall 6906 Chicheley Hall with 2884 Class 3802 behind in the Tyseley Workshop at an unconfirmed date estimated between March and May 1961 (Now confirmed between May and August 1961). 6906 was allocated to Banbury since at least 1947 and was withdrawn from there in April or May 1965. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, in June the same year. (BR Database). 3802 was allocated to Oxley in April 1952, Tyseley in November 1962 and then Severn Tunnel Junction, Taunton and Bristol Barrow Road in October 1964 where it was withdrawn in August 1965. It went to Barry where it was saved from scrap in 1984. For details of its life in preservation see 3802 The allocation to Tyseley as late as 1962 makes the suggested date of the photo as March to May 1961 a bit shaky but it could have moved to Tyseley from Oxley for repair. Once we've examined all the photos from this roll we can make a better assessment of date.

6906 Wdn 3/4/65. (Irwell)



Midland Compound 41168 at Monument Lane Yard on an unknown date but estimated at between March and May 1961 (now confirmed between May and August 1961) on the same roll of film as the photos above. This was one of the very few Compounds I saw at first hand and I believed to be the last one running but that doubtful honour fell to 40936. These photos may help a bit with the date. 41168 was allocated to Monument Lane from June 1958 and was withdrawn in July 1961. (SLS). It's not carrying a shed plate in these photos which may indicate that it has already been withdrawn. It went to Derby Works where it was scrapped by the end of May 1962 which was before 3802 (above) was allocated to Tyseley. (Rail UK). According to WHTS the loco was stored at Monument Lane between October 1958 and April 1961 and was seen in Derby Works Sidings by August 1961, last recorded there in May 1962. This info is enormously helpful for us as it confirms that the date of these photos must be before August 1961. Even allowing for the errors in WHTS the recorded info coincides quite nicely with the evidence to hand. It looks as though I'm going to have to update the copyright dates...









Now to Germany and more of 012 080-8 Rheine - Emden in March 1974. The DB photos titled Rheine-Emden with the catenary are all at Rheine Bhf.









Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

6906 Wdn 3/4/65. (Irwell)

I found this book which has a helpful note re compounds,



The last two compounds theoretically in traffic were 41168 and 40936, surely a typo Brian as 40932 was withdrawn from Gloucester Barnwood in May 1956. They were both allocated to Monument Lane although the book notes that they lasted in stock but out of use into 1961. 936 was withdrawn in Jan 61 and went to Cashmore's Great Bridge, 1168 was withdrawn as you say in Jul 61 and went to Derby for cutting up. The 2P 40678 in front of the compound was actually a Bescot engine and was also withdrawn in Jul 61 so I think this might be the stored serviceable road at Monument Lane prior to ultimate disposal, the tenders appear devoid of coal, and the 2P at the back has been graced with sacking over the chimney. That it's 1961 is I think without doubt. Interesting.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Martin. So the last Compound theoretically in traffic actually was 41168 which may be one of the reasons Tim spent so many frames on it. My mention of 40932 was down to pure laziness - I'd looked the matter up (Monument Lane Shed - View of ex-LMS 4P 4-4-0 Compound No 40936 coupled to the experimental Stanier 3500 gallon tender) and typed up what I thought I remembered! That site is a bit confusing, though, as it advises 40936 as the last of the class but reading on that 41168 was the last Compound withdrawn. I should have read through to the end which I've done now. As you'll see as we go through the Monument Lane photos Tim photographed 40678 as well.

In the same string of locos as 41168 and clearly in store with the chimney covered is 2P 40692 at Monument Lane Yard on an estimated date between March and May 1961 (now confirmed a between May and August 1961). This was actually allocated to Bescot and had been since June 1958. It was withdrawn in July 1961. (SLS). According to WHTS it was in store at Monument Lane between March and August 1961. It was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge by the end of September (BR Database and Rail UK).



Original condition and un-named Patriot 45550 at Aston Shed at an unconfirmed date but probably between March and May 1961 (now confirmed between May and August 1961). It's carrying a 21D Aston shedplate where it was allocated from July 1960 until August 1961 when it went to Warrington Dallam, then Lancaster Green Ayre and Carnforth in June 1962 where it was withdrawn in December the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped in September at Cashmore's, Newport. (Rail UK).



Royal Scot 46169 The Boy Scout in Aston Shed Yard on an unconfirmed date but probably between March and May 1961 (now confirmed between May and August 1961). It was at Crewe North in September 1959, then Annesley in January 1963 where it was withdrawn the following May. (SLS). It was scrapped at Crewe Works by the end of August 1963. (Rail UK). Is that tender loading outside the loading gauge?



During Tim's Germany Rheine - Emden Tour in March 1974 he photographed this station, I guess as the train passed through. Does anyone recognise it?

Edit:
That station awning support work is very 'un' German but very 'Dutch', as is the higher roof section between the awnings. I don't immediately recognize it but it has a distinct Dutch feel about it more then Germany, though the architecture close to the border could transpose I suppose.

That does also look very much like a Dutch unit in the second picture on the right.

I suspect Tim would have traveled by train and used the Harwich-Hook service, in which case he would have traveled through Holland en-route to Germany.

Got it, it's Hengelo in Holland, hasn't succumbed to the progression bulldozer either, good job as it's a lovely structure.

In fact the little hipped roof house in the background still exists, now the grey building with light grey trusses.







Here's one of the 2-10-0s entitled Germany Rheine - Emden in March 1974 probably at Rheine.

Edit:
I rather think the loco travelling tender first in the Rhein-Emden series in #2891 is a Br 41 2-8-2. Other thoughts and opinions may apply.

Roger

Just my thought. Looks more like a 2-8-2 and I think it can be recognized as a BR41 by the distinctive platform under the smokebox door.

Michael

I think the location of the BR 042 is Salzbergen Bhf as the Münster-Rheine electrification only went as far as Rheine in 1974. Looking at the quality I would suggest this was taken through the window of the corridor door at the back of the train as it is over the track centre.

Assuming this is the same train at Hengelo (NL) (see img4016/7 above) it would have travelled to Oldenzaal (NL) under 1500v DC at which point traction would be changed to diesel for travel across the border to Salzenberg (D) via Bad Bentheim (D). Hengelo - Oldenzaal was electrified in 1951 and Oldenzaal - Salzenberg in 1976 as part of the Emslandstrecke elektrifiziert from Rheine to Emden and Norddeich Mole.



Finally for today oil burning 2-10-0 043 094-2 and oil burning 4-6-2 012 080-1 Germany Rheine - Emden in March 1974. The DB photos titled Rheine-Emden with the catenary are all at Rheine Bhf.



Brian

 

[mickoo]

That station awning support work is very 'un' German but very 'Dutch', as is the higher roof section between the awnings. I don't immediately recognize it but it has a distinct Dutch feel about it more then Germany, though the architecture close to the border could transpose I suppose.

That does also look very much like a Dutch unit in the second picture on the right.

I suspect Tim would have traveled by train and used the Harwich-Hook service, in which case he would have traveled through Holland en-route to Germany.

Addendum.

Got it, it's Hengelo in Holland, hasn't succumbed to the progression bulldozer either, good job as it's a lovely structure.

In fact the little hipped roof house in the background still exists, now the grey building with light grey trusses.

 

[Roger Pound]

I rather think the loco travelling tender first in the Rhein-Emden series in #2891 is a Br 41 2-8-2. Other thoughts and opinions may apply.

Roger

 

[michael080]

I rather think the loco travelling tender first in the Rhein-Emden series in #2891 is a Br 41 2-8-2. Other thoughts and opinions may apply.

Just my thought. Looks more like a 2-8-2 and I think it can be recognized as a BR41 by the distinctive platform under the smokebox door.

Michael

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I rather think the loco travelling tender first in the Rhein-Emden series in #2891 is a Br 41 2-8-2. Other thoughts and opinions may apply.

Just my thought. Looks more like a 2-8-2 and I think it can be recognized as a BR41 by the distinctive platform under the smokebox door.

I concur and would go on to say it is a Br 41 Öl i.e. a Br 042 judging by the extension on top of the tender.


As to the locations - the DB photos titled Rheine-Emden with the catenary are all at Rheine Bhf.

I think the location of the BR 042 is Salzbergen Bhf as the Münster-Rheine electrification only went as far as Rheine in 1974. Looking at the quality I would suggest this was taken through the window of the corridor door at the back of the train as it is over the track centre.

Assuming this is the same train at Hengelo (NL) it would have travelled to Oldenzaal (NL) under 1500v DC at which point traction would be changed to diesel for travel across the border to Salzenberg (D) via Bad Bentheim (D). Hengelo - Oldenzaal was electrified in 1951 and Oldenzaal - Salzenberg in 1976 as part of the Emslandstrecke elektrifiziert from Rheine to Emden and Norddeich Mole.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

and even more of London buses, particularly RTs and RMs. These are in colour.

Will three turn up at once when posted?

 

[paulcarms]

Just a quick thank you to all the contributors to this thread. A wonderful education and great entertainment reminding me of all the things that got missed when pursuing 2 wheel transport.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

That does also look very much like a Dutch unit in the second picture on the right.

Well spotted - it does become obvious when you enlarge the picture.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Incidentally the histories of the German locomotives can be found here dampflokomotivarchiv.de

012 080-8 is here and part of her frames are on display at Hamburg-Altona

 

[mickoo]

Well spotted - it does become obvious when you enlarge the picture.

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wood....trees....