7mm US model dabblings

mickoo

Western Thunderer
It just seems like a shame to have this sitting here without any purpose for it.:( I only need the frame and below from this loco.View attachment 45462

By the way, a common paint stripper in the states is 91% isopropyl alcohol. I have no idea if such a thing is available in the UK. One can buy it off the shelf at the corner drugstore here. Inexpensive and plentiful. Occasionally a toothbrush may need to be worked into the nooks and crevices. But it will take paint off most models without damaging the plastic. A notable exception being Kato models. Apparently they use a paint or "ink" that is much more difficult to remove.
James, Yes you can buy that stuff here too, Steph noted it above as IPA which is generally what it is called in the UK, I've had a quick look on Ebay and you can get 99.9% proof in 5 Litre drums very cheaply http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251257851755?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT so I think that will be next on my shopping list :thumbs:.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Mick

I have to say that looking at you photos the yellow seems ok, it's the blue that is too dark compared to the photos.

Now the problem with colour is knowing what you are looking at. My screen is calibrated with a Spyder 4 and using custom ICC profiles most of my prints from my printer match my screen. But to add to the complications I'm a bit brown/green colour blind, I have jacket that to me is brown but to everyone else I know its dark green !

So are you comparing like with like, is you screen properly calibrated, if it isn't there is no point in comparing your photos the what your paint results look like.

Richard
Richard, I'm with you there, my screen isn't calibrated, but I do know that it has served me well when colour picking for painting Flight Sim models sold in their hundreds all over the world, no one has complained my F4U Corsair was the wrong colour blue LOL

I did pay a lot (stupid money) for my monitor as it was supposed to come set up as close as possible to the correct colours and touted as used by press and professional users, mind that could all be hype and b......lks.

I've also used my screen like you to adjust colours and tone for printing and self published a book, sold one and gave three away LOL, the printed matter was very close to the screen colours, I'm happy with my screen, but fully accept it's not calibrated to the same level as yours is. Given all the photos I take and host up on Flickr and have had published in Books and Magazines (latest Freightliner 08 in this months Railway Express :thumbs:) it's something I perhaps ought to invest in.

But! I do take your point about colour perception and agree, the blue is totally wrong, the yellow is a maybe. One other thing I've found with colour matching is adjacent colours, these seem to have a very big perception on how we view colours in question, often a colour looks wrong until we add the adjacent colour and then it all 'fits' to what we 'expect' to see.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Mick,

I am with Richard on the blue as applied to the cab in your post of one hour ago.

As to a colour which will please you and be "correct" when others question the authenticity of the finish, you have said all that needs to be said on the matter... as here:-
Having looked at hundreds of CSX images lately, it's clear that the colours change tone with the weather, under dull conditions the blue is quite dark...

and supported by Brian's comment... as here:-
By the time you add in fading/bleaching of prototype railway colours due to sunlight ... it's a case of "if it looks right it is right".

Pick a blue that is somewhere between "just out of shops on a sunny day" and "in need of cleaning after several years of strong sun and heavy rain" and we shall all believe you :thumbs: . The important thing is to remember what you do so that you can (try to) replicate the finish if you have a further model from that road.

regards, Graham
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Graham,

Cheers :thumbs: One of the reasons I fill this forum with trite like this.....is so that I can come back later and read what I did, there's no way I'll remember any of this next week, let alone in another two years when the US interest bubble makes it orbital return ;)

Moving onward I tried the lighter blue (Vauxhall Regatta) in conjunction with the yellow with red base colour.

IMG_7561a.JPG

As can be seen, quite a bit lighter and to my eyes, just too...how do we say?.....blue. The CSX blue seems to be more muddy or off blue, but I don't know which way or a better description for it, or more importantly the description the rest of the world would call it.

Floquil, renowned as probably the best source for colours show CSX Yellow and Blue as thus.

http://www.art-paints.com/Paints/Enamel/Floquil/CSX-Yellow/CSX-Yellow.html
http://www.art-paints.com/Paints/Enamel/Floquil/CSX-Blue/CSX-Blue.html

Both of those look right to my eye, but their UP Yellow
http://www.art-paints.com/Paints/En...rmour-Yellow/Union-Pacific-Armour-Yellow.html :eek: yeah right!

The blue, with an RGB of 48-73-103 and my colour picker in PSP showed 34-86-134 from the CSX image above, close but not close enough I suspect, the hard part now is finding a spray can to match that colour, there's a 'lot' of blues to choose from in Halfords....even direct off the shelf, let alone ones made to order. conversely there's only three Yellows that come close to what I need, and I have two of those already ;)

I also fully accept that the test colour photos above are taken inside under lighting and outside will exhibit totally different shades outside....remember the BR green trail! (thanks Warren for the correct BS381 colour in the end :thumbs:)....but, the layout will be inside so it has at least got to look semi right under these conditions.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
You're obviously well aware of the effect of lighting on colour, Mick. And your last paragraph above says it all for me - you are reviewing it under the conditions where it will be seen. The only issue to my mind will be defining the colour of the light in your reference photo!

Brian
 

Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
I've never read anything about it, but blue seems to be very difficult to photo with digital cameras anyway - they never catch the shade correctly. My HO Progressive Rail locos are quite a dark blue, but the camera shows them as quite light. The DVD I have of the real Railroad also shows the same locos as looking like they are totally different shades of blue, at different times!
I want a Blue for CSX YN2 "Bright Future"; your test piece on the cab looks ok to me, Mick! Then again, I have the Microscale decals; that's what I've got to colour-match..!!!
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Ever onward, another round trip to Halfords this morning, two actually, yes you guessed it, another can let go on me again, blue this time!

Still I returned with Golden Yellow which was too pale and Azure Blue (BS381 104) which success of all successes looks pretty bang on :thumbs:

I tried to get some BS381 356 Golden Yellow made up, but this branch couldn't do that, the mix contained colours which contained traces of lead and they were not licensed to dispense leaded paints, even in trace colours so those colours were missing off the shelf:rolleyes:

We picked another near colour BS381 363 which is Bold Yellow, hmm err no, that didn't mix up well, in fact it looked like the UP yellow noted above from the Floquil site, which makes me think that once sprayed it might actually look like yellow and not the runny cat :shit: it does in the mixing cup. Either way I wasn't going to take a punt so flicked through the colour charts and opted for Lamborghini Giallo yellow....turns out Giallo is yellow and there's loads of them....so I can't tell you exactly which yellow it is :confused:

On top of this they then told me they couldn't sell me two tins of made up paint, by law they can only supply a maximum of 500ml of made up paint at any one time....each tin is 300ml. I asked them how long I would have to sit in the car park before the limit was reset so I could come back and buy the second can :rolleyes:
In the end we had to take it through the till as two transactions, using two different credit cards! The stupidity of it all is that last night I walked out with six cans of pre-made stuff, nearly 2 ½ litres! and that's legal, in addition, if the made up paint is metalic then there is no limit at all, yet the metalic paint has an additive that is highly toxic, but they can dispense that at will and as much as the customer wants. Paints with out the 'highly toxic additive'....are restricted to one can per transaction, go figure!
To be fair the staff were very reasonable about it all and likened it to the crazy law we have about purchasing Aspirins and Paracetamol, it just makes it bloody awkward for the genuine customer in my mind.

This is the reason why I like modelling in metal, just drop it in thinners, swish it about and dry off and it's ready for another go:thumbs:

IMG_7564a.JPG

Here's the results from today, slightly better masking but it's a colour test so not overly worried about that.

Outside under cloud
IMG_7567a.JPG

Inside under natural lighting
IMG_7566a.JPG

You'll have to excuse the spattery paint effect, it's these crappy tins they use for their mix up paints, but, overall not a bad colour check really, the blue is pretty bang on in my eyes, certainly in the flesh and the yellow I'm still not sure about, so may revert back to the Rover Inca Yellow which has more of an orange tint. Having said that, the image outside shows the yellow to have a distinct orange feel, yet in the flesh it's no where near that deep a colour, which leads me onto other thoughts about PC screens and the such like....going back to Richards point last night.

Almost all of the images I have in normal well lit light show the yellow to be quite golden, on the PC screen, much like the test shot above, but in reality the test shot is lighter, could it be that in real life the CSX yellow is lighter and it's modern digital cameras that are changing the hue, it's not just my photos but the several thousand others I have from other photographers which exhibit the same trait. Maybe some mileage, maybe nothing.

I've attached some more images that might help solve this conundrum.

A close up shows how dark the blue can actually be and quite a dark yellow.
CSX 8726.jpg

Again a darker blue but very orange front.
CSX 1600.jpg

Interesting one here , note patch under number, that blue easily fits the lighter Vauxhall Blue I used last night on the can under the cab images
CSX 4593b.jpg

Ironically that blue (Vauxhall Regatta Blue) and yellow (Fiat Broom Yellow) combination is also perfect for some BNSF locos
BNSF 3178.jpg

Finally two good shots that prove the yellow changed between YN2 and YN3 schemes

YN2 leading with YN3 trailing, the YN3 is much more orange.
CSX 0700b.jpg

And in reverseCSX 0704.jpg

The yellows I currently have easily match YN2, but Yn3 is still illusive.

One colour down, one to go, I'll order some of the Azure blue from Doncaster Autos, their cans have pretty good nozzles for model spraying, the Halfords mixed up paint can nozzles are :shit: if I'm honest but the pre made stuff can be used quite effectively. I may see if they can do the Golden Yellow with leaded additive colours and may drop for the Bold Yellow, even though in the cup it looks like runny cat :shit:

Onward!
 
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mickoo

Western Thunderer
Then again, I have the Microscale decals; that's what I've got to colour-match..!!!
Drat! :cool:

I can't find any YN3 for love nor money so am going to have to resort to making my own from decal paper. I think YN2 is still available though.

I'm lucky, we have an A3 laser printer at work so will run the sheets through there, much better than trying to get it to work with an inkjet printer, though I'm told it can be done but you have to seal them or something? At least printing your own you can match the colour to the yellow on the front and not have it look odd, that would be the biggest problem if I ever do get a set of CSX YN3 decals, the logo is the same colour as the nose, or supposed to be.

I think your right about blue and cameras, as noted in my last narrative, nice to hear it from another source as it was only vague supposition on my part up until now. Azure Blue works very well for YN3, YN2 might need a lighter/greyer tone to match your decals, certainly Rover Inca Yellow with a red base coat will do the nose front, no idea about the grey, will worry about that when I get to the CW60AC project ;)

In theory the Azure Blue should be good for both schemes but it's easy to see from just a small handful of pictures how easily it changes colour, even more so than the YN3 scheme, it looks to fade very quickly.
 

Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
The only CSX O Decals I've seen are for YN2.

Oh & please can you not describe a colour as "runny cat :shit: " when I'm drinking, please..?? Beer down the nose is such a waste..... :rolleyes: :oops: ;)
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
I've never read anything about it, but blue seems to be very difficult to photo with digital cameras anyway - they never catch the shade correctly. My HO Progressive Rail locos are quite a dark blue, but the camera shows them as quite light. The DVD I have of the real Railroad also shows the same locos as looking like they are totally different shades of blue, at different times!
I want a Blue for CSX YN2 "Bright Future"; your test piece on the cab looks ok to me, Mick! Then again, I have the Microscale decals; that's what I've got to colour-match..!!!
Blue is always difficult because of a characteristic known as anomolous reflectance. This is because some dyes contain an element of pigment which reflects infra red to which the human eye is not sensitive. However, camera film and some, if not all digital camera receptors are sensitive to infra red and this degrades the image accordingly in a magenta direction. And magenta is a really UGLY colour. The classic image which creates this reaction is of bluebells or morning glory.

So now you can file away another item of useless information for the pub quiz.

Brian
 

Big Train James

Western Thunderer
Any thoughts given to contacting the CSX Historical Society for paint specifications? Many times they can provide specific Dupont or PPG paint numbers. Worth an email perhaps?

http://www.csxthsociety.org/index.html

Of course, many times in the long history of man as modeler have official paint specs been declared to be inaccurate. So many variables, not least of which being the end user.

Jim
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Jim,

I hadn't considered the csxtsociety, having said that, even if I did have the accurate Dupont or RAL numbers, I still have a problem getting the exact same mix here in a spray can, there may be a few places that can mix it up for you from the official paint spec but I've no idea where they might be. An airbrush is due in the near future (still miffed at loosing my last one in the house move), then I can mix my own or use Floquil....if you can still source it. I'm also beginning to wonder if paints do not scale well either?

The link to the csxtsociety produced some nice info on covered hoppers, one of the things I didnt do last time was stateside was take enough pictures of rolling stock and infrastructure, I won't make that mistake when I'm back over there in a few months :thumbs: Can't wait to wander around Taft again and head over to Wildwood, perhaps explore a little more of the S line southward and find some more local industries.

Sunday seems a good day to wander around the industrial parks and those people that you do see seem to not mind so long as you keep a respectable distance from anything working and observe trespass signs etc.

Centre beam at Wildwood.
IMG_9210b.JPG

Four bay at Taft
IMG_8171a.JPG

Two bay at Taft
IMG_8490a.JPG

Waffle boxcar at Taft
IMG_8577b.JPG
Interestingly these box cars seem to be a much darker blue...which means my spray cans that are too dark for locos can be used to respray box cars.

Some Taft local industries.
Img_8076.jpg

Img_8148.jpg

Img_8151.jpg

Img_8159.jpg

This GP60 was being used as the local switcher, Taft seem to have grabbed it and kept it, it was there for the whole time I was there and did all the switching required in and around the Taft area, mainly the Autorack terminal which it seemed to work several times a day, much to the local motorists fury, but on this day, Sunday, it was working some out of town industries to the south.
Up 1949_07.jpg

I've only processed about 60% of my images from the last trip, I should really go back and do the rest so that I don't duplicate any of the ones already done and stored on the PC.

The over-riding and lasting impression of all these industrial sites, and pretty much everywhere really, is the over head utilities, living in the UK much of it is below ground, but state side it's all overhead and there's always a vast array of poles and transformers dotted around and of all different ages and types.
 
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oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Jim,

I'm also beginning to wonder if paints do not scale well either?

Hi again Mick.

They don't - paints and scale I mean. At a distance the ultra violet in the atmosphere introduces a blue element at a hugely variable amount - if the weather is hazy the UV is a lot greater than when strong and clear sunlight is present, although even then there tends to be some blueness over long distances. It's why photographers use a Wratten 1A or even 2B filter for scenic shots and a 2B is very noticeably yellow. Even at relatively short viewing distances colours tend to "soften".

I suspect this explains why using the absolutely correct prototype colours sometimes doesn't work although my knowledge of the psychology of colour viewing rather than the technical aspects is somewhat limited. I suspect that this may also have something to do with models looking better with a somewhat less than gloss finish, even when being presented as "ex-works" even though we know that the prototypes were full gloss - at least a semi mat finish always looks more convincing to me.

Your pictures are superb, though, and make me wonder why British industry doesn't use railways for freight in the same way as North America. Of course, as I know from my working days, shipping by road is usually a great deal less expensive in the UK and Europe although distances for European freight must be similar to those in the US and Canada. In these overcrowded isles, though, surely rail freight is the way forward?

(I'll duck below the parapet now):D

Brian
 

Big Train James

Western Thunderer
Jim,

I hadn't considered the csxtsociety, having said that, even if I did have the accurate Dupont or RAL numbers, I still have a problem getting the exact same mix here in a spray can, there may be a few places that can mix it up for you from the official paint spec but I've no idea where they might be.
Are there automotive paint supply companies in the UK. A place where an auto body shop might go to get paints, custom or otherwise, for refinishing fixed up dents? They usually will supply to the retail customer here. And I believe they also can do the custom mixes in spray cans. The only potential issue is that I believe these are usually solvent based paints so may need to be sprayed over a barrier on plastic shells. Applying to metals shouldn't cause any issue at all however.

Jim
 

Dikitriki

Flying Squad
Jim,

I hadn't considered the csxtsociety, having said that, even if I did have the accurate Dupont or RAL numbers, I still have a problem getting the exact same mix here in a spray can, there may be a few places that can mix it up for you from the official paint spec but I've no idea where they might be.

Mick,

There's an automotive place near me that does exactly that - rattle cans to RAL numbers.

Richard
 

TheSnapper

Western Thunderer
.

........... In these overcrowded isles, though, surely rail freight is the way forward?.........

Returning from France last week, and seeing at least 10 miles of stationary lorries on both sides of the Channel Tunnel, I'd tend to agree with you Brian!

Tim
(apologies for HiJack)
 
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