7mm Mickoo's Commercial Workbench

Lancastrian

Western Thunderer
Mick,

You'll need the Midland Railway 3500 gallon tender.

Coal rails
Extended side plates
No tank vents
Two "dustbin lid" tank fillers
Rectangular pick-up delivery box, although no scoop fitted of course
Coping over-lapping tender side plates
No beading
Snap head rivets

Don't forget the locomotive will be RHD.

Ian
 
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mickoo

Western Thunderer
Little bit of an update, client went with the stock kit tender :thumbs:

I just need to find a 4F that worked into Wales for a number, preferably LMS, I've a couple noted at Swansea Victoria Paxton Road shed as a back up in the late 30's, ideally I need one in the mid 40's to suit the tender as the vents were moved around then, I don't really want to pull them off and have to fill the spigot holes.

Having finished the tender I've made a basic start on the engine. The backhead is one of those whitemetal all inclusive package holidays to the Med' affairs, they have their uses and place, just not here ;) A new 3D print with brass fittings shall be required, I shall also be adding a 3D cylinder block and try to fill in all the gaps around the ashpan, the frames are.....how shall we say.....barren but functional :thumbs:

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mickoo

Western Thunderer
I like “barren but functional”! At least it means it is easy to add to.

Will the 3D backhead be available commercially?
We'll see next week, how easy it is, to add to :D

Define commercially, if it's through a shop front or vendor then no, however, if you have a 4F and require one, I am sure that in exchange for some otters noses (shekels) and badgers spleens (dinars) one will find it's self in the post to any address provided ;)
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Cheers, sorry mate, that should of read 'mid' forties as I need an LMS engine, not BR.

None were allocated to Wales according to the book of words, but that's not to say they were not visitors, I'm sure hundreds did over the years and I'm sure records will be thin.

I suspect anything from the Birmingham area could of worked down to South Wales and I'm sure Crewe, Chester or Manchester engines would of worked into North Wales.
 

Rob R

Western Thunderer
Mick,

Nice shot of S&D No. 59's tender in Ivo Peters' (who else) S&D in the 50's vol 1 (photo 119) - a bit late now I know.

But it' just as well it's not going to be an S&D "Armstrong"as they were supplied with Armstrong Whitworths own take on the Johnson tender, subtly different enough from the MR version to require a scratchbuild (or custom etch), something to do with a thousand or two snap head rivets scattered all over the place and sundry other differences as noted by Lancastrian a few posts back.

They seem to have kept their tenders through to the fifties, No. 57 had one in August 1956 but had lost it by October 1957 for instance.

For a South Wales loco (visiting) could Hereford, Gloucester, Bristol, Worcester or Shrewsbury be likely candidates for a home shed as well?


Rob
Just been to the Ragstone site - all bases covered. Please ignore 2nd paragraph.....
 

Eastsidepilot

Western Thunderer
Cheers, sorry mate, that should of read 'mid' forties as I need an LMS engine, not BR.

None were allocated to Wales according to the book of words, but that's not to say they were not visitors, I'm sure hundreds did over the years and I'm sure records will be thin.

I suspect anything from the Birmingham area could of worked down to South Wales and I'm sure Crewe, Chester or Manchester engines would of worked into North Wales.

The BR data base might give some clues to loco allocations for further investigation as there were some 4f's based at Gloucester and Bristol in '48 which could have been there in the early mid 40's ?

Col.
 

Lancastrian

Western Thunderer
April 1944

Alsager - 4348, 4354, 4366, 4370, 4450 - 52, 4497
Aston - 4058, 4077, 4219, 4302, 4350, 4490, 4517
Bath - 3911, 4096, 4102, 4402, 4523, 4557 - 61
Bristol - 3876, 3917, 3929, 3939, 3982, 4033, 4134, 4135, 4169, 4411, 4422, 4424, 4466, 4534 - 36, 4546
Bushbury - 4027, 4439, 4492
Crewe South - 4300, 4301, 4385, 4453, 4595
Gloucester - 3846, 3924, 3932, 3935, 3964, 3978, 3994, 4045, 4167, 4269, 4272, 4553, 4567
Shrewsbury - 4454
Walsall - 4068, 4069, 4115, 4339, 4441, 4488, 4506, 4507, 4512

There was also 37 4F's at Saltley.

Ian
 

Eastsidepilot

Western Thunderer
We'll see next week, how easy it is, to add to :D

Define commercially, if it's through a shop front or vendor then no, however, if you have a 4F and require one, I am sure that in exchange for some otters noses (shekels) and badgers spleens (dinars) one will find it's self in the post to any address provided ;)

Wot ! no Dromedary pretzels, (only half a denar ).

Col.:D
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Slowly getting there with the connoisseur 4F, the upper works sans back head are all complete now and time to get on with the chassis.

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The reverser supplied just sits flat on the seat/splasher/box, on the real engine it's angled and sat on a bracket to do just that, a quick scratch built unit was whizzed up and fitted; the real thing is a bit more complex and that vexed me for a while. Eventually I realised that there are so many other things not quite right that the reverser bracket authenticity kind of falls to the 'really doesn't matter' bracket.

IMG_9357.jpg

The criteria is to add inside motion, maybe not the best idea given that the kit really isn't designed to have inside motion, a lot of hacking and additional work and I've not even started the wiggly bits yet.

The kit ash pan is a pair of jogged side frames (seen attached in the first photo below with double sided tape), the plan was to sheet across the base and add damper doors to the front, a little research showed the kit ash pan doesn't match the information (shape, style, detail) I found, so a new 3D one was hacked up. Currently the rear is totally open for the motor and worm but a Mk II will close some of that large opening up.

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The frames are designed with a flat top, not sure why as extensions (correct) above the footplate level fit perfectly fine. In hind sight it would of been easier and better to run off some new etches, butt joints for the rear extensions still show a faint witness mark, so more filling and smoothing required. I also need to add a further set of extensions up front but cannot do that until the 3D cylinder block is finalised and I've worked out how much footplate and smoke box rear need hacking out. The quest for working inside motion came late in the day during the build, can't be helped so workarounds are a fact of life.

IMG_9351.jpg

The primary reason for the extensions was to support the throat plate stay which is quite prominent on the real engines, again another 3D print, it's only 0.5 mm thick and came out all right, it's in a low impact zone so doesn't need to have all the strength an etched metal one gives, besides it's faster to draw, make and print. Just to be sure it has been backed with a strip of metal already soldered between the extensions.

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Next step is a 3D printed cylinder block and scratch built motion bracket, once I have those all set up and aligned with the inside cranks can I begin to build up the motion.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
A week has passed and the nice clean chassis is taking it's toll, grubby is as grubby does :(

Moving at glacial speed now, two steps forward, one back, the 4F lumbers along. If you want inside motion in a 4F then don't start here, or there or anywhere, it's a nightmare. It's not the kits fault, it's simply not designed to accommodate inside motion. I opted for the Laurie Griffin inside motion set, overall it seem good but has to be compromised to fit inside narrower frames, those compromises lead to others and soon it's a whirl pool of head bending solutions to overcome each in a steady stream changes.

In all fairness, if I had known inside motion was required at the start then I would of made new frames, it would of been faster and cheaper, none the less, wacka mole has been the order of the last two weeks.

The biggest stumbling block is the cylinder block, it has to squeeze in past the front stay (heavily hacked) and the leading horn guides, the piston and valve centres have to be set to align with the inside crank, but here in lines a hidden bear trap, the 4F valves do not follow a logical straight line from crank to valve, there are offset links and swinging arms to add to your woes.

Once the cylinder block was finalised then I could work up the motion bracket, the kit one is that square sheet with two square holes, the last image is the new etch sheet showing the new bracket and all the additional links you need as well as the LG set. You see the LG set is designed for engines with valves below the pistons, the 4F has them above, thus the drive has to be cranked up from below the drive line to above.

I'll be honest, I'll be staggered if all those bits fit and align on the first hit.

On a positive note, the springs inside the drain cocks actually printed fine and the little slots in the valve stem gland show the brass insert lovely. The brass insert allows the valve rod to function and not wear the 3D print. The piston gland is part of the slide bar assembly and has a spigot that fits into the print.

Right way up, it actually looks cleaner than it really is. There's a couple of micro plunger pick ups buried inside the cylinder block, it's impossible to get the cables from there to the motor down the inside of the frames. There's two choices, opt for US style pick ups, or, run a cable with two plugs at each end through the boiler from smokebox to firebox, I opted for the second one and I've some smaller plugs in the post from a very nice chap, you know who you are :thumbs:

IMG_9367.jpg

From below, now that the ash pan is finally fitted I can add the steam lines to the rear sanders and feed them up inside the frames ans secure them.

IMG_9368.jpg

There's a small cut out in the rear of the ashpan to accommodate the motor worm.

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The cylinder casting and the kit offering for the motion bracket. The brass inserts for the valve guides will be fitted after paint, that way the little slots in the casting will highlight the brass effect, no point modelling the slots if they're all blended in as one colour.

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The new etch sheet with all the extras needed to compliment the LG inside motion kit, as well as a correctly shaped motion bracket.

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Time for some beer.....
 
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dibateg

Western Thunderer
I really like the cylinder unit Mick. The whole thing is a world ahead of my effort. It is a bit of a squeeze getting the motion in, this is on a JLTRT kit - I had to thin down the cranks as well. This is how I managed it:-
DSCF3428.JPG

How things move on!

Regards
Tony
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
I really like the cylinder unit Mick. The whole thing is a world ahead of my effort. It is a bit of a squeeze getting the motion in, this is on a JLTRT kit - I had to thin down the cranks as well. This is how I managed it:-
View attachment 132516

How things move on!

Regards
Tony
Very nice :thumbs: :bowdown:

To be fair I had no choice, there is nothing in the kit for the cylinder block, front, base or rear.

The off set crank levers ahead of the motion bracket are clear to see, but it looks like they've done the offset at the pivot boss where as it should be at the linkage bosses top and bottom, but that's a really anal anorak observation.

3924_K&WVR_010803_Valve rocker by London Midland Society, on Flickr

I can also see yours has the webs on the bearing bosses, I can see me having to add those now.......sigh.

To be fair, I suspect back when you did yours there wasn't much information floating around and the GA drawings are not clear on the shape of the return links. The LMS society has a nice Flickr page for references London Midland Society

I've now seen some oil lines that feed into the valve guide stem castings, do I now add those, if so, how many more lines do you add....a perpetual question of upgrading one area and then having to go back and upgrade other areas to match, a real 'triggers' broom scenario.

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Copyright Flickr owner, name and links long lost and forgotten.

I had to thin the cranks on mine too, they're the wrong shape, being oval ones supplied in the kit, the only balanced ones LG did (bought extra) are LNWR ones and they are massive, too much throw, way too thick and almost impossible to thin down.

I did fret over the crank profile for a few milli seconds, then looked at some other parts of the kit and decided they were more accurate than a whole lot of other bits, so they stayed.

I can see where you've run the pick up cables along the frames, that was the preferred choice in the instructions but I opted out and ran the cables through the boiler assembly.
 

Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen

Western Thunderer
A week has passed and the nice clean chassis is taking it's toll, grubby is as grubby does :(

Moving at glacial speed now, two steps forward, one back, the 4F lumbers along. If you want inside motion in a 4F then don't start here, or there or anywhere, it's a nightmare. It's not the kits fault, it's simply not designed to accommodate inside motion. I opted for the Laurie Griffin inside motion set, overall it seem good but has to be compromised to fit inside narrower frames, those compromises lead to others and soon it's a whirl pool of head bending solutions to overcome each in a steady stream changes.

In all fairness, if I had known inside motion was required at the start then I would of made new frames, it would of been faster and cheaper, none the less, wacka mole has been the order of the last two weeks.

The biggest stumbling block is the cylinder block, it has to squeeze in past the front stay (heavily hacked) and the leading horn guides, the piston and valve centres have to be set to align with the inside crank, but here in lines a hidden bear trap, the 4F valves do not follow a logical straight line from crank to valve, there are offset links and swinging arms to add to your woes.

Once the cylinder block was finalised then I could work up the motion bracket, the kit one is that square sheet with two square holes, the last image is the new etch sheet showing the new bracket and all the additional links you need as well as the LG set. You see the LG set is designed for engines with valves below the pistons, the 4F has them above, thus the drive has to be cranked up from below the drive line to above.

I'll be honest, I'll be staggered if all those bits fit and align on the first hit.

On a positive note, the springs inside the drain cocks actually printed fine and the little slots in the valve stem gland show the brass insert lovely. The brass insert allows the valve rod to function and not wear the 3D print. The piston gland is part of the slide bar assembly and has a spigot that fits into the print.

Right way up, it actually looks cleaner than it really is. There's a couple of micro plunger pick ups buried inside the cylinder block, it's impossible to get the cables from there to the motor down the inside of the frames. There's two choices, opt for US style pick ups, or, run a cable with two plugs at each end through the boiler from smokebox to firebox, I opted for the second one and I've some smaller plugs in the post from a very nice chap, you know who you are :thumbs:

View attachment 132508

From below, now that the ash pan is finally fitted I can add the steam lines to the rear sanders and feed them up inside the frames ans secure them.

View attachment 132509

There's a small cut out in the rear of the ashpan to accommodate the motor worm.

View attachment 132510

The cylinder casting and the kit offering for the motion bracket. The brass inserts for the valve guides will be fitted after paint, that way the little slots in the casting will highlight the brass effect, no point modelling the slots if they're all blended in as one colour.

View attachment 132511

The new etch sheet with all the extras need to compliment the LG inside motion kit, as well as a correctly shaped motion bracket.

View attachment 132507

Time for some beer.....


Mick,

How about putting the pick-ups on the tender wheels?

all the best
Tim
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Mick,

How about putting the pick-ups on the tender wheels?

all the best
Tim
Yup, good idea, plenty of space in there and being as I can only hide four on the engine, I'll probably opt for another four in the tender; I'm not a fan of cables twixt engine and tender, but needs probably must.
 

fenman

Active Member
Yup, good idea, plenty of space in there and being as I can only hide four on the engine, I'll probably opt for another four in the tender; I'm not a fan of cables twixt engine and tender, but needs probably must.
Mick,
Bit late in the day but Ragstone Models do a very good 4F chassis kit in S7 and narrow gauge.
Pete.
 
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