An ex LMS 42ft CCT in 7mm

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Jim,

I think the comment I made when dad showed me the GUV was something like 'sometimes I really hate being right'...

We'll get to the bottom of it I'm sure, it'd be a damned shame not too! I think the Jenkinson approach remains the most likely for success, but I'm still playing with solvent-free adhesives for styrene so there may be other options.

Steph

As you keep reminding me, I know you taught me everything I know.

I looked at the vehicle again today with the side removed, went in to depression and stuck the whole lot in a box! Then I got it out again and tried to separate the laminations with absolutely no success, so back in the box it went. I've still to do the photos to describe what I mean.

I'm now going to re-read the Jenkinson book and try building a new side.

In the meantime I'm completing the Sentinel.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Very nice, Brian :thumbs: Any update on this vehicle ?.

Steve :cool:

Thanks for the continuing interest, Steve.

The answer is that there's no progress to report - yet. It's still put away in a box on a notional shelf. Not really a shelf queen, more a cupboard frog. :shit:

However..... it's a really attractive prototype, the bogies are complete and the frames are re-usable. Therefore I've discussed possible ways forward, not least with Steph. It seems that the likely cause of my problems is a fundamental failing in the use of solvent cement with the design of the kit which relies on three layers of Plasticard sandwiched together. The solvent has not evaporated from between the layers resulting in the sides bubbling and blowing.

My new approach, using a new set of sides, will be to cement with a plastic friendly, slow setting cyano acrylate glue. The absence of solvent should prevent the problem repeating.:)

However, right now I'm finishing a 9F and then have the LBSCR K together with a Finney A3 so it may be a while before I can lard my goins enough to tackle it again.

Once the vehicle is out of it's box again I'll restart the thread.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
I promised to update the reasons for my problems with this build and to show pictures.

In a fit of pique I'd stuffed the whole lot in a box and walked away from it.

After due consideration I removed it and pulled the worst side off the vehicle to see if I could split it in to it's component parts and start again. That didn't work - it just started to break up. This pic shows most effectively the way the side is breaking up and also the problem which caused me to take a break from this one - the side is badly bubbled.

100_2037 - Copy.JPG

And here's the other end of the same side - not so broken but still showing bubbles in the top lamination.

100_2038 - Copy.JPG

It's not just the sides though. The floor is bubbling and even the overlay on the ends.

100_2039 - Copy.JPG

100_2040 - Copy.JPG

However...... on looking at what's left it is quite clear that the opposite side is OK and usable - see below.

100_2042 - Copy.JPG

So, the question is why?

Well, as I mentioned at the start of this thread (I think!) this was commenced rather in the nature of an experiment. One side - strangely the one which has bubbled up - was laminated using a contact adhesive. The opposite side was laminated using MEK. Inspecting it now it appears to be OK, regardless of whether or not the solvent has fully evaporated. I was extremely careful when building up this side to ensure that the solvent was applied evenly. However, following my apparent initial success with the sides I was rather more cavalier with the application of the cement on the coach base and also the overlays.

Where does that put me now?

The overlays at the ends can be corrected quite easily. I'll split the overlays and apply a bit more cement or use cement to lift them where they are bubbled and apply a more controlled dose of solvent as an adhesive. A similar procedure on the coach base should also deal with the problem.

Fundamentally the underframe is OK - there is a bit of a curve in one of the plastic angle components but that can be fixed either by cutting this piece out and replacing it or substituting a piece of brass angle.

I'll also have to make a new side. That presents me with a bit of a problem as I've never done this before, but I have the original side as a pattern.

All in all this is perhaps not the write off I thought it would be. In fact only one side needs replacing. I now have rather too much on the bench to start recovering this vehicle just now, but once I've created some room I'll give it another go.

Brian
 

Len Cattley

Western Thunderer
Hi Brian, like your thread. Have you ever thought of using Revell plastic cement instead of MEK it's great stuff and used by tank and plane builders?

Len
 

Peter Bunce

Active Member
Hi,

Sorry to hear about the MEK attack, could I suggest that you try 'Limolene' which is less aggressive, and it has a slower drying time.

Geoff Kent mentioned it in his article in MRJ, and I got mine from Magnacol who sell it in 250ml bottles upwards.

I have no connection with them, the website is www.magnacol.co.uk.



Yours Peter.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Hi Brian, like your thread. Have you ever thought of using Revell plastic cement instead of MEK it's great stuff and used by tank and plane builders?

Len

Hi,

Sorry to hear about the MEK attack, could I suggest that you try 'Limolene' which is less aggressive, and it has a slower drying time.

Geoff Kent mentioned it in his article in MRJ, and I got mine from Magnacol who sell it in 250ml bottles upwards.

I have no connection with them, the website is www.magnacol.co.uk.



Yours Peter.

Thanks for two helpful comments.

I have to admit that I've not looked at Revell cement. I will do so, although if it's in a tube it's unlikely to be effective as it has to flow between layers - but I'm making assumptions here (altogether now " assumptions are the mother of.....") and it may be liquid in which case it'll be worth a throw of the dice.

I've used and have a lifetime supply of Limonene. Yes, good stuff and may be an answer.

It seems, though, that at least part of the problem is because the solvents cannot escape from between two or more laminations. It therefore fails to ever dry and the solvent still tries to escape, thus forcing the layers apart. I may need to try a new approach and a suggestion from Steph is to use a plastic compatible and slow drying super glue. I bought some at Guildex and will give it a go. However, it will need a new approach which will include clamping the parts and fitting registration pins - actually not as difficult as it sounds when written down, if you see what I mean. When I get to restart this project I'll update.

Brian
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
It seems, though, that at least part of the problem is because the solvents cannot escape from between two or more laminations. It therefore fails to ever dry and the solvent still tries to escape, thus forcing the layers apart. I may need to try a new approach and a suggestion from Steph is to use a plastic compatible and slow drying super glue. I bought some at Guildex and will give it a go. However, it will need a new approach which will include clamping the parts and fitting registration pins - actually not as difficult as it sounds when written down, if you see what I mean. When I get to restart this project I'll update.

Brian,

When I responded previously on the thread about your problem, I hadn't realised that you had used a contact adhesive on one side. I believe that most if not all contact adhesives use solvents (many having their formulas changed to lessen their use for solvent abuse) and I suspect that that's what messed up the side you used contact adhesive on. I would stick with Mekpak or Limonene since that has been working for styrene layered sides since Plastikard came on the scene many years ago. The first person I saw making coaches using the method was a demonstrator at the old Easter exhibition in London in the 1960s (I think I remember his name was Gordon Heywood) and of course David Jenkinson popularised the method in his articles in the Railway Modeller in the 1970s.

However, if you proceed with the super glue, I will be very interested in your results. :)

Jim.
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Jim,
Jenkinson's techniques are subtly different than that here. His approach uses long thin strips between the inner structure and outer skin. These strips provide shape, strength and importantly a means for solvent to escape.
I suggested to Dad the use of Zap 'laminating adhesive' (blue label) cyano as I've used it for laminating sections of styrene on my Maunsell carriages; it helps stiffen up the top of the side around the windows.
As a alternative there are solvent free impact/contact adhesives, some of which are quite really available. Look for Evo-Stik in a red tin with a small green 'solvent free' label under the name. They take a little bit of care to work really well as the glue layer needs to be much thinner and more even than solvent based versions. It also needs to be fully dry before laminating the parts.
Steph
 

Scale7JB

Western Thunderer
Hi Brian,

Very interesting to come across this thread, as after a little more digging i've worked out that this is the carriage that I need for my all-sorts parcels train, and it is a great looking prototype !

Did you have any further luck rectifying the carriage sides, also, does anyone know if the kit manufacturer is still going ? Maybe I'll try and give them a call a bit later today..

JB.
 

Bill Campbell

Western Thunderer
Another approach is to mix and match components from suitable sources along with a bit of scratchbuilding.
This is my effort:

LMS 42ft van.jpg
Roof and ends are from Peter Cowling, bogies from Ian Kirk, wheels from Easybuild, buffers from Invertrain and some bits and pieces from the odds and ends box. The sides are a 20 thou plasticard outer, thin cardboard middle and 20 thou plasticard inner sandwich. Those door stops were a bit fiddly though.

So, Brian, why not re-create the sides as they are the relatively easy bit and use the rest of what you have for a rebuild?

Regards.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thank you, chaps, for resurrecting a subject and model which, I still believe, has great potential.

No, at the moment I've not gone back to it, and I'm still in the middle of the Brighton "K", the subject of some extended posts up to the end of last year. Model making has been on the back burner for a while because of our house move and the Grand Workshop Build, but everything is now back at home. I have cupboards, tables and units to buy, and then work out how to fit everything in. Even then model making won't be my first priority as there are other house matters needing attention.

My mojo for this project went in to hiding when I decided to scrap the sides and it needs to be resurrected before I can face attacking it again. All parts are retained, though, and my inclination will be to build a new body on to the existing and repairable/relatively undamaged chassis/underframe. I agree that it's a charming prototype, and one I had intended to produce in multiple. In truth I think my approach with this kit was rather cavalier as it was so inexpensive and seemed to offer a simple build. In fact my knowledge of the materials was sadly lacking (I have considerably greater understanding now!) and I believe a new build of the same subject could well be successful.

Watch this space! If the "K" doesn't get the better of me and if I can clear up a few shelf queens (painting "Evening Star" and a set of 4mm and 7mm signals for club, and continuing the build of the Finney A3 to completion), I may be tempted to go back to the Parcels Van.

I actually don't know whether these kits are still in production. They used to be available on the MSC stand at exhibitions, although have not been there for a while. I suspect that I won't be the only one who'll be interested to know whether you can establish their availability.

Brian
 

Scale7JB

Western Thunderer
Hi Brian and all,

I emailed Denis yesterday, and got the updated price list through a couple of hours later, so yes all of the kits are available.

I shall hope to put an order in shortly.

JB.
 

Scale7JB

Western Thunderer
I've had to do it as screen grabs from my phone as it's now in an excel format.

There is some overlap..

JB.

image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks so much for doing that. This is a vastly increased range since I last saw a list.

Certainly some of these kits have been successfully built, so I'm encouraged to have another go.

Brian
 

Scale7JB

Western Thunderer
Well, I got the kit through this morning.

I can see now that with 4 laminations for the sides there really is the potential for it to go wrong. I think I shall probably start from the inner laminations working outwards, sticking two laminations together and then drilling holes in the unseen parts to allow the gasses/excess solvent to escape and hopefully this will prevent any blowing of the plasticard.

Talking of scratchbuilding new sides, for the princely sum of £18, why not just buy another kit?

JB.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Talking of scratchbuilding new sides, for the princely sum of £18, why not just buy another kit?

JB.
I have!

I'll be following your build with the greatest of interest. I've been nervous about facing a restart and getting it wrong again. Maybe it's time to add it to the end of the build queue.

Brian
 

Scale7JB

Western Thunderer
Couple of questions, do you recall the size of the microstrip that you have used on the sides and the roof?

Also, (not that I need them just yet) do you have to hand the distances between the ribs on the roof ?

Are those sidelines bogies sprung ? Would ideally be for S7..

JB.
 
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