For those with a love of Teak - Antimacassars, colour and style?

Gresley Teak carriages to be precise.

Corridor carriages with a single toilet compartment at an end of the coach had a water filler above the toilet compartment... and during the grouping period the tank was filled by a person putting a water hose into the water filler (on the roof). On each side of the water filler were two short handrails, maybe 15 to 18 inches in length. A good example of this arrangement are the TK and BTK to diagrams 114 and 115.

So what was the situation for carriages with a toilet compartment which was located elsewhere, such as between the guard's area and the passenger compartment? An example of this type of coach is the BCK to diagram 175 of which one is preserved on the SVR - does anyone have a photo of the roof of this particular coach?

thank you, Graham

Hi Graham,

I took these on 12th May 2009 at the SVR,

hope they might be what you are seeking.

Part two follows

cheers

Mike

part the second:



cheers

Mike

im sure you can match the teak affect with paint

Ian G

Dog Star said:

Gresley Teak carriages to be precise.
So what was the situation for carriages with a toilet compartment which was located elsewhere, such as between the guard's area and the passenger compartment? An example of this type of coach is the BCK to diagram 175 of which one is preserved on the SVR - does anyone have a photo of the roof of this particular coach?

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Hi Graham,

There is a photo, of the corridor side, of Dia 175 No. E 10115 on page 66 of Harris's book on Gresley coaches. Looking closely there does appear to be a short handrail just outside the line of roof vents, ie towards the cantrail, in line with where the lav would be, so I guess the method was the same as the end lav stock.

Best wishes,

Susie

Hi Graham,

There is another photo on page 65 of Harris's LNER Standard Gresley Carriages of a Diag 134 which is described as being similar to the D175. It backs up what Susie says above and the photo is a little clearer than the one of E10115

Susie said:

There is a photo, of the corridor side, of Dia 175 No. E 10115 on page 66 of Harris's book on Gresley coaches. Looking closely there does appear to be a short handrail just outside the line of roof vents, ie towards the cantrail, in line with where the lav would be, so I guess the method was the same as the end lav stock.

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Rob Pulham said:

There is another photo on page 65 of Harris's LNER Standard Gresley Carriages of a Diag 134 which is described as being similar to the D175. It backs up what Susie says above and the photo is a little clearer than the one of E10115

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Robin, silly olde beare time once more. I have the book in your post and I missed the relevance of the photo noted in your comment. Thank you for pointing out the probable connection.

Susie, page 66 in LNER Standard Gresley Carriages is a page of drawings, no photos, so unlikely to be the book which is referenced in your post. Harris put his name to at least three books on Gresley coaches and I suspect that you may be referencing the volume published by David & Charles. If your reference is to the D&C book then can either you or Robin please provide a scan of the photo (under Fair Use conditions)?

Whilst searching the internet yesterday I was reminded about a topic that I started on RMWeb exactly four years ago, the subject being roof details of teak carriages - link here. At that time the information which was provided by Mike Trice - who joined this forum in October - covered some of those carriages which had toilets at the end of the carriage so the BCK stock such as D175 escaped attention. Seems that our teak carriages are qualified candidates for the title "Shelf Queens".

regards, Graham

Graham

Personal research for non commercial use is most definitely fair use.

Richard

To close on this question...

I ought to have known better, I ought to have looked sideways as well as studiously. Robin has provided a copy of the page that was referenced by Susie and the photo does show handrails alongside the water filler for the toilet near to the guard's area. After talking to Robin recently I have gone through "LNER Standard Gresley Carriages" (Harris, Mallard Press) and there are a few photos of carriages with toilets "amidships" - in some cases the angle of the photo does show the roof details of other diagrams... BCKs to D127, D134 and D175 all show the handrails beside the water filler.

regards, Graham

Preservationists often restore a vehicle to an "as-built", rather than "as re-built" or "re-furbished" condition. Restoring a vehicle to an as-built condition is laudible and reasonable provided that the result is not an historical anachronism. So when looking at a heritage vehicle built in (say) 1935 as a research resource for a 7mm model of the same vehicle type later in life then one has to beware of changes that might have been made by the prototype railway companies.

Rob Pulham and Peter are both building 7mm models of the LNER BTK to D114 using the JLTRT kit as a basis, Rob's model is to be circa 1935 whilst Peter's model is to be circa 1948 so differences in finish are to be expected. The current area of interest for us is the compartment interiors as building the body seems to require that the interior is finished before the sides / ends / floor are assembled - and that means that the compartment walls and seats need to be painted. Whilst looking for photos of the interior of Gresley carriages I became aware of differences in the way in which the seats were trimmed and I have pondered on what changes were made here other than in regard to the upholstery.

Gresley BTK no. 3669 has been restored to an "as-built" condition and here is a link which illustrates the seating. The Scottish Railway Preservation Society is restoring a Gresley TK and has posted photos of the carriage before restoration started, this link and this link illustrate the seating at that time (the history of the coach can be found here).

The seats provided by JLTRT are NQLTRT when compared to any of the above photos... being without buttons and with a plumper headrest.

So, for our model of a BTK in post WW2 comdition, what would be the most likely style of seating? My money is on a seat without buttons (as per the un-restored TK) and with a flattish headrest (as per the restored BTK).

What do others think?

Two weeks and much staring at photos / drawings / forum posts and some progress has been made in regard to the third class seating. The photos and links included in earlier posts are relevant to the story... just slightly different context.

As a starter, I spoke to Laurie Lynch (JLTRT) to ascertain what alternative seat castings might be available to those which were included in the Gresley kits for BTK (D114) and BCK (D175). None. Laurie ventured that the castings were more generic than specific... so modifications for period are in order.

Taking the D114 first. Rob is modelling his BTK (built early 1930s with truss rod underframe) as running mid 1930s whilst Peter is modelling his BTK (built mid 1930s with angle iron underframe) in circa 1948 condition. From reading of Harris and supported by responses to questions on the LNER Forum my current understanding of seating for D114 is as:-

* as built until circa 1934-6, truss-rod underframe with four-a-side seating and arm-rests against carriage side / corridor screen, fawn cloth with buttons - no intermediate arm-rests and no "side" head-rests. Carriage 3669 has been restored to this condition;

* from circa 1934-6, angle-iron underframes with three-a-side seating and arm-rests against carriage side / corridor screen, not clear on upholstery - intermediate arm-rests and no "side" head-rests. This picture shows the style of seat back from this period;

* upholstery of seating has a hard time and seats get re-trimmed over time. Although I have no information as to when any Gresley carriage was re-trimmed, this photograph of a Thompson carriage (carriage 1623, built 1950, restored to as-built condition) shows seating in the same style as referenced earlier. We shall try to represent the basic colouring of this cloth and without the pattern.

The JLTRT Gresley 3rd class seat is a representation of the four-a-side seat... with "side" head-rests - for our purposes we have to add the intermediate arm-rests and remove the "side" head-rests, as here:-


Adding arm-rests in the shape of a 'T' from 40x80 thou (horizontal) and 30x60 (vertical) Evergreen strip - 14mm centres.


After removal of the head-rest projections at either end of the seat moulding, just another 31 to do.

For the BCK to D175 I have had much less success in trying to determine the seat style and cloth for the period circa 1948. Whilst there is a D175 carriage on the Severn Valley my reading of the restoration / overhaul of this vehicle is that the "blue" cloth of the first class seating might be BR material from the 1960s. So for now we have concentrated on modifying the JLTRT moulding to provide a better representation of the seat style - primarily the intermediate head-rests.

All D175 carriages were angle-iron underframe and the corresponding drawing in Harris shows the third class seating to be three-a-side with intermediate arm-rests so the corresponding mouldings are modified as per the previous post.

The seat moulding which is provided for the first class compartments has intermediate arm and head-rests in a similar style. Tthe first class version has intermediate head-rests which scale at around 1" wide whilst photographs show a "chunkier / wider" head-rest of between 3 and 4". The following photographs show the start of replacing the intermediate head-rests of the JLTRT moulding:-


A first class seat moulding as received.


1mm holes drilled, from the front, through the seating at the base of the intermediate head-rest


Holes enlarged to 1.8mm, from the back, and lines drawn for cutting with a razor-saw.


Saw-cuts made through the back of the seat and material removed to provide a slot into which the new head-rest is to be fitted.

After cutting the slots for the intermediate head-rests... the head-rests were made from 60x188 thou Evergreen strip, when a "head-rest" is inserted into the slot the "appearance" is close to that which can be seen on page 11 of "LNER Standard Gresley Carriages" (Harris, published by Mallard) and in these photos of GNR 2701 (a CK of circa 1922 vintage).

Here is the result:-


A lot of work? Maybe, about two hours per seat. At least with the D175 BCK there are only two first class compartments... and no, I shall not be encouraging Peter to acquire any more JLTRT Gresley stock which has first class seating.

The question arises has Mr Beare & Son always been this pedantic about coach interiors, or have I been setting a bad example?

Heather Kay said:

The question arises has Mr Beare & Son always been this pedantic about coach interiors, or have I been setting a bad example?

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Beare & Sons Inc have always offered a superior service in all aspects of research, interior and exterior.

They do look really good though.

Richard

Dikitriki said:

Beare & Sons Inc have always offered a superior service in all aspects of research, interior and exterior.

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I can't argue about that, having had the use of the service many times over.

Dikitriki said:

They do look really good though.

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Which begs the question... how does the modelling fraternity end up with a seat moulding which is lacking when compared to restored coaches? The JLTRT seat moulding could have been a better representation of the real thing... we would all have benefitted with more care during the creation of the master.

It's a job very well done, but given that it will all be semi obscured inside a coach I think the improvement will be largely lost on any viewer.

But you have the satisfaction of knowing that the thing is more accurately represented, which is good.

However at two hours a pop I'd have been leaving well alone!

Simon

PS of course what would make them look really good would be seeing them on a layout

but Graham, now you have a 'master pair' you can cast away to your hearts delight you have cornered the market.

cheers

Mike

Ressaldar said:

... now you have a 'master pair' you can cast away to your hearts delight...

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Correct... such fun is beyond me at this time.

Simon said:

... given that it will all be semi obscured inside a coach I think the improvement will be largely lost on any viewer.

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At this point this comment seems a fair sentiment... what is not shown in the pictures here is that the seats as supplied fall foul of the window space - that is, the head-rests intrude into the window openings such that the seating is visible in a broadside view and that is definitely neither like the real thing nor good for a model. So the un-prototypical headrests had to go on the third class seating and as the thirds outnumbered the firsts 32 to 4 then enhancing the first class seating was a pleasant distraction.

Painted samples now depend upon the weather. We shall be using Games Workshop acrylics with a base colour overall plus shading for shadows and highlights for worn / polished edges of the squabs. A nice touch on the prototype is that the arm-rests are a deeper blue leather in the first class so there is going to be some colour contrast there.

regards, Graham