BR rolling stock in Scotland circa 1986-9 - current interest is Mk.2F FO

My son Peter (@Spike) has written elsewhere about wagons that he is building for a "West Highland in the late 80s" theme and like much of what we do the kit manufacturers seem to have overlooked our interest. This brake van is a case in point... look at this photo of Peter's work to date:-



where He has fitted the Slater's sprung axlebox parts - no axleboxes / springs so a rough ride is guaranteed. The kit includes springs and horn cheeks and I expect that we shall use those parts. The tricky bit is the axleboxes for the options in the kit do not include either roller bearings or split oil (RCH style?) and most of the photos of late 80s vans on Paul Bartlett's website are fitted with one of those two options.

OK - I can ask Parkside for sprues from the Grampus kit for the split oil boxes or sprues from the Blue Spot vans for roller bearing boxes so I am not worried about sourcing parts to complete. Just before we commit to a chosen prototype I wish to ask WTers for suggestions...

We have made a selection of two prototypes from Paul Bartlett's wagon photo web-site and chosen vans which were photographed in the Glasgow area at some time between 1984 and 1990. Does any WTer have photos of BR brake vans which meet Peter's criteria for place and time?

thank you, Graham

[QUOTE="Dog Star, . Does any WTer have photos of BR brake vans which meet Peter's criteria for place and time?

thank you, Graham[/QUOTE]
Hi Graham, nothing for the geo location but some of the era - note by then, even if unfitted they might be bauxite, have you seen the HMRS book on them?


SVR after 1985

24 September 1986

demu1037 said:

... have you seen the HMRS book on them?

Click to expand...

Thank you Andy,

I have read the HMRS book on BR Brake Vans. I feel comfortable about interpreting most photos of BR brake vans after reading the excellent content. My posting is really about vans at places rather than build details.

Surprised to see so many vans in Woodham's yard as most scrappies would steer clear of bidding for these vehicles - they had to bid by weight and most of the weight had no value (what price per ton for scrap concrete?).

What date / location for the last image, please?

Dog Star said:

Thank you Andy,

What date / location for the last image, please?

Click to expand...

I don't know! (Where is Mick when you need him!), i have this second pic as well, I think it is a repair location and gien the OHLE in the background suggest Wolverton or Crewe, unfortunately I cant make out the branding on the first image apart from 'to work between....'

It's Wolverton Centre sidings.

mickoo said:

It's Wolverton Centre sidings.
View attachment 53263

Click to expand...

thanks - that was my guess, but nice to have it confirmed. For bonus points what's the branding......

Graham

What are you planning to use the brake van on ? For your suggested era virtually all freight had moved over to air brakes and brake vans were not used on anything except those very few trains where the guard needed to be at the back of train, some of the chemical trains where if there was a problem it wasn't safe to have the guard walk to the rear of the train so he had to be there from the out set.

Even on the west highland I'm struggling to think what you are going to use a brake van on, everything was air braked.

Richard

richard carr said:

What are you planning to use the brake van on ? For your suggested era virtually all freight had moved over to air brakes...

Click to expand...

Richard - cats, dogs, grampussies...

The BR diagram 1/504 and 1/506 sections of Paul Bartlett's web-site reveal at least six brake vans in the area of Glasgow and Edinburgh circa 1984-1990, at least one in Dutch and several in tired departmental bauxite. As per the original post, the 1/504s are split oil whilst the 1/506s are roller bearing and neither of those options are covered by the kit as supplied hence asking to see if any other photos are helpful.

Graham

Cats and Dogs are vacuum braked and its unlikely they would have been in a train with a brake van, and if they were it would almost certainly have been a shark not a BR standard. There may still have been some unfitted grampus wagons about then that is probably your only real excuse for using one. Personally I would fit some roller bearings, there are plenty available, make sure you get the right buffers too, I used buffers from MMP and parkside bearings for mine.

Richard

richard carr said:

... make sure you get the right buffers too...

Click to expand...

Easier said than done.

On the basis of Paul Bartlett's photos:-

* if we go 1/504 with split oil 'boxes then the spindle buffers supplied with the kit are suitable.
* if we go 1/506 with roller bearings then the buffers in the kit are not suitable and we have to source Oleos.

Oleos, more fun than a wake... short or long buffer rams, small or big buffer heads, oddity design with bigger buffer head... the photos suggest 13" heads with the short rams and that, I believe, comes from NRMS.

Eureka!

from British rail in colour vol2 a photo taken in 1987 (Burntisland) by Les Nixon, class 27 (059) with ZTP DB95092x & Dogfishes - spindle buffers/split aboxes

Here is a link to one of Paul Bartlett's photographs - the subject of Peter's first BR Diagram 1/506 brake van. The photo looks like some of the cabin has been replaced by "raw" timber whilst much of the paint has been lost from the verandah ends and or blistered(?) from the side sheeting. I shall be interested to read about how other WTers might approach replicating the unpainted wood finish of the side and the worn / weathered finish of the verandah end.

Some questions about the "livery" of this vehicle:-

* what colour has been used for the cabin / veranda ends?
* what colour has been used for the footboards? (seems to be red of a shade similar to the veranda ends)

The cabin end and inside of the far verandah end have "brighter / fresher" red paint than the rest of the bodywork and that suggests repair work - what has been done here?

thank you and regards, Graham

Dog Star said:

I shall be interested to read about how other WTers might approach replicating the unpainted wood finish of the side and the worn / weathered finish of the verandah end.

Click to expand...

My first port of call would be Martyn Welch's seminal work "The Art Of Weathering". I am sure he covers some techniques to replicate blistered paint and weathered wood.

Dog Star said:

* what colour has been used for the cabin / veranda ends?
* what colour has been used for the footboards? (seems to be red of a shade similar to the veranda ends)

Click to expand...

At first glance the footboards appear to have been given a coat of red oxide primer. Perhaps the other woodwork has been similarly treated, although it's more than likely to be BR bauxite that's just faded and weathered.

Hi Graham,

You can make blistered paint using Vallejo Crackle Medium - google/youtube search Vallejo Crackle Medium

Changing subject slightly... the Platform 5 book on NCPS for 1985 shows a fair number of GUVs allocated to Polmadie and Craigentinny so I have started looking at photo web sites of people who were covering the Oban and Mallaig lines in the 1980s, for example Bob Lumley (@Silverystreaks). Not a single GUV to be seen. All I have been able to find are two GUVs on an Euston-Inverness working, possible Motorail and one at Oban in 1977.

I do hope that Andy Beaton (@demu1037) knows just where to look for photos of GUVs north and west of Glasgow.

Any other WTer have any ideas about GUVs in the west of Scotland?

Turning to more modern stock... when were the air-brake Mk.2s introduced for services from Glasgow to Oban and Fort William? Perusing the galleries mentioned above shows the odd Mk.2 BFO(?) working with Mk.1s so that coach is likely to be vacuum-brake. Otherwise, the presence of Mk.2 D/E/F stock seems to be restricted to the overnight sleeper (SO and BSOT?).

Suggestions as to use of Mk.2 stock on the WHL in the late 1980s shall be appreciated.

thank you, Graham

Graham

I'm fairly certain the MK 2 d,e or f stock nly ever appeared on the sleeper as it does today.

Mk2 A, B and C may have appeared on the daily workings with Mk1 stok but it would not have surprised me if by the late 80's the mk 1 stock was dual brake sual heat so the mk 2s would have been air braked too..

If I recall correctly 37/4s were air braked only.

Richard

... the Platform 5 book on NCPS for 1985 shows a fair number of GUVs allocated to Polmadie and Craigentinny so I have started looking at photo web sites of people who were covering the Oban and Mallaig lines in the 1980s, . Not a single GUV to be seen. All I have been able to find are two GUVs on an Euston-Inverness working, possible Motorail and one at Oban in 1977

thank you, Graham

Click to expand...

!!! what appears to be a train consisting of an SK & a GUV, again from British rail in colour vol2 a photo (by John Chalcraft) taken in June 86, stated to br the Perth-Inverness vans

richard carr said:

I'm fairly certain the MK 2 d,e or f stock only ever appeared on the sleeper as it does today.

Click to expand...

Mk.2 D/E/F with Mk.1s on what is likely to be a local service is shown here . I understand from Bob (@Bob-65B) that the leading carriage is a de-classified Mk.2F FO.

The other two carriages in the train are, I believe, BSO(T)s - the image appears to have a trace of red stripe above the far end compartment of each vehicle.

Dog Star said:

Mk.2 D/E/F with Mk.1s on what is likely to be a local service is shown here . I understand from Bob (@Bob-65B) that the leading carriage is a de-classified Mk.2F FO.

Click to expand...

A JLTRT kit for a Mk.2 D/E/F FO has arrived on Peter's folding table along with the inevitable question... "what needs to be added / removed / changed?" to build the model as a de-classified FO running in Scotland in the late 1908s. I think that the bogies / underframe / body shell can be built as intended by JLTRT (unless any WT-er advises otherwise).

What gives me concern at this time is the description "de-classified" for I am sure that following the BR(WR) way of sticking paper labels to windows is not going to cut the mustard. Reading Michael Harris's book on the Mk.2 coach (British Rail Mk.2 Coaches - the design that launched Inter-City, Mallard Books, ISBN 1898432481) suggests that the conversion work was limited to removing the headrests. Just the headrest cushion? Or was the seat form cut to remove the headrest wings as well?

The seating configuration for the FO would have been 2+1... so was a de-classified FO considered as equivalent to a SO (with 2+1 seating) or did the conversion include changing the seating to the equivalent of TSO (2+2 seating)?

What was done with the curtains?

Thank you if you can offer any information on this subject.

I'm not sure this actually (as usual) answers your question, but may put you on "the right track"