Heljan class 25, thoughts?

Hi Everyone,
I'm currently in a quandary!
My love for all things German outline and H0 scale has pretty much evaporated and the same for US H0 too (oh dear!).
What has really surprised me is that I have had a resurgence of interest in the British scene and am contemplating doing some trading in.
I fancy a class 25 or Derby type 2 and I know there is an updated one coming from Bachmann (sometime!) as well as a simply sublime one readily available from Sutton loco works.
What is also appealing is the thought of a 7mm scale one and I know that there is the Heljan one just released.
So!
Has anyone got one, please?
If so, are you happy with it?
Are there any Bachmann style faults, shape of cab roof, windows etc?
Or, were I to go 7mm, would I be better off with a Waterman kit?
Thanks in anticipation,
John E.

The cab front is flat when it shouldn't be and either the bogie centres are way too close together or the body is much too long.

allegheny1600 said:

.....
Or, were I to go 7mm, would I be better off with a Waterman kit?
.....
John E.

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Absolutely, the JLTRT class 25 builds up very nicely from what I've seen.

Mick D

Perhaps I should send my example back under complaint then, because it appears to have been damaged somehow in transit - both flat fronts have become distorted either side of the flat connecting doors such that they have taken on a definite if mild curvature.

As far as measurements go - if you can obtain some reliable full-size data (and that does not mean scaling off the suspect drawings provided in one publication), I can advise with confidence that the model scales up at 1:43.5 to give -

Distance over buffer beams 14,377 mm (330.5mm)
Distance over buffer heads 15,442 mm (355 mm)
Bogie centres 8,526 mm (196mm)

From CLASS 25 LOCOMOTIVE DETAILS comes the following:

Bogie Centres 28ft (8534 mm) in 7mm scale out by 0.18 mm
Length over buffers 50ft 6" (15392 mm) in 7mm scale out by 1.16 mm

I suspect the 0.18mm error in bogie centres was down to my use of a 1mm graduated ruler, the length overall difference of 1.16mm might simply be down to simple sprung buffers of the model.

Try comparing it with photos of the real thing. Do you think they look alike?

I think the visual issue with the 25 is that few model all the clutter on the front of the bogie and under the cab, the real engines have a bit of an over bite anyway but this is offset by all the gubbins on the buffer beam and bogie front structure, a lot of which seem to be missed off models, there by creating a visually larger overhang.

RTR seem to concentrate in great detail on the bogie sides, but then go down the pub at lunch time when it comes to the transverse areas at the front and rear.

MD

allegheny1600 said:

What is also appealing is the thought of a 7mm scale one and I know that there is the Heljan one just released.
So!
Has anyone got one, please?
If so, are you happy with it?

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Hi John,

I do not own one of these but I did have a good look at one whilst I popped into my local model shop the other day. I am not really into the RTR stuff but I have to say that the loco looked pretty good to me, in sensible proportion and well detailed. I know the 'rat' family of locos were a minefield for specific details so without comparing with photos of the exact loco to be modelled I couldn't comment. It just looked right!

allegheny1600 said:

Or, were I to go 7mm, would I be better off with a Waterman kit?

Click to expand...

I have no complaints with the JLTRT locos and they do allow you some flexibility to chop and change to make a very good copy of the real thing. They just take a bit of time to build but quite satisfying when you have done so

HTH

Cheers
Lee

The front end does have a curve, this model is based on the Derby batch not the Darlington so choose your number wisely and don't compare it to a 25/3.

Due to the variation in Class 24 and 25 shapes / profiles / styles, a RTR model can only be representative of a specific number of locos and therefore can never have the flexibility that a kit might.

So given the qualification that (front profile-wise) the Heljan model appears to be a very good representation of the Derby-built 25/1 locos only, i.e. 37 out of the 57 Class 25/1s built in total, is there really nothing about it that can be defined as wrong, or an avoidable 7mm scale design error?





Is it still too early to congratulate Heljan?

Osgood said:

Due to the variation in Class 24 and 25 shapes / profiles / styles, a RTR model can only be representative of a specific number of locos and therefore can never have the flexibility that a kit might.

So given the qualification that (front profile-wise) the Heljan model appears to be a very good representation of the Derby-built 25/1 locos only, i.e. 37 out of the 57 Class 25/1s built in total, is there really nothing about it that can be defined as wrong, or an avoidable 7mm scale design error?


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Is it still too early to congratulate Heljan?

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Not too early for an assessment, but I don't think the Heljan model deserves congratulation. As Jim Smith Wright mentions earlier there is something wrong with the nose profile. Take a look at this photo of a real class 25, in particular the nose doors, note how they stand proud from the front. Now examine this photo of the Heljan model, the doors are flush with the front. I can't make up my mind if this is the sole cause of the cab front appearing to be too flat, but on balance I think there may be a slight yet significant problem as even with flush plated doors the real thing exhibits a faint crease line where the outer sections of the cab sides meet the flat face of the flush panelled cab front doors threepenny bit style.

To be honest I'm over any issues with the nose profile, I'll be ordering one tomorrow and by the end of the week I'll have a fully painted working class 25, I just don't have the time to build up a kit for an extra two hundred quid or so and would rather put the time into more exotic and rare models you can't buy rtr. I've studied photos this weekend of all sorts of nose ends and have seen curved ones, flat ones squashed ones and I'm fed up of looking for errors.

I like the Heljans and think it's great that a manufacturer is making ready to run O guage I'm sure the models have their faults but they sell and I can see why Just my thoughts
John

If you like it and are happy with it then that's fine, but the question "Are there any Bachmann style faults, shape of cab roof, windows etc?" was asked and the answer has to be, yes there are.

Neil said:

If you like it and are happy with it then that's fine, but the question "Are there any Bachmann style faults, shape of cab roof, windows etc?" was asked and the answer has to be, yes there are.

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Can you enlighten us poor souls any further?

Osgood said:

Can you enlighten us poor souls any further?

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Yes I can; take a look at my post (#11) where I set out why I think the cab front looks too flat. There are a few links to photos of both model and real thing to illustrate where I think the model goes wrong.

I think what sometimes we 4mm modellers forget is that 7mm modellers are far more forgiving of things. I think john hits tha nail on the head in that 7mm modellers don't have a lot of choice when it comes to half decent RTR (intentional or not there does seem to be a 'we should be grateful that we've got anything' approach). Plus taking a razor saw to fix a £60 4mm model is not as much of a big deal. There's much more after market support too and more people doing it.
If you use class 25s as an example there's plenty of different approaches to getting a decent result that usually involves combining different models to get the best bits. It's true that a lot of people don't really see the problems with 4mm models until someone does this sort of project and they can actually see what it's supposed to look like.
Is there anyone doing those sort of heavy modification projects in 7mm scale and is there even the support to do so if you wanted too?

Bit philosophical for this early I know!

Sorry Neil, but I see only a pair of badly-fitting doors?

Note the top of the left door in your first pic (viewed from front) - it fits perfectly flush in the recess at the top, yet at the bottom it appears to sit proud.
Wasn't this the cause of the reason they were plated over - to eliminate drafts through poorly fitting doors?
You can imagine doors being crowded shut with brute force against strips of foam or whatever else was available in attempts to seal them and suffering distortion as a result.
Plenty of pictures out there showing seemingly flush-fitting doors, also plenty showing doors just like your pic with great gaps around the edge.

It wouldn't help for John to opt for the JLRT version either, as they too appear to have gone for the flush door option (from Just Like The Real Thing Class 25 | Western Thunder):



Ross's thread is well worth a look - other pictures there illustrate how much the visual appearance is altered by a front with greater curvature.
The JLTRT version look excellent and a great representation of variants other than the Derby 25/1s.

In the light of which - is there any way you can be persuaded, Neil, that the answer to John's question might not necessarily have to be 'Yes' ?

Tony

Thanks for the link to Ross's thread and I fully take your point about the fit poor or otherwise of the cab doors. I think we bring our own subjectivity and priorities to bear; the flat face of the Heljan 25 would bug the life out of me, especially compared to the JLTRT version. Other things I find easier to overlook, a glance at my distractions thread shows that I generally inhabit the lower end of the finescale food chain.

I hadn't considered Jim's point about the forgiveness factor of the 7mm scale modellers till now. I become more inhibited about doing things to rtr models the higher their price tag, I imagine I'd be paralysed when the cost heads further north. However though it's common to see improved 25s in 4mm scale there are an awful lot of modellers who are very happy with their Bachmann locos straight out of the box.

I don't think it's healthy to pretend that a model has no flaws, but I should add (and to my shame missed out from my original post) that we shouldn't judge each others decision whether those flaws are an acceptable compromise.

Hi Guys,
An interesting discussion, thanks to all who contributed so far. I think it is telling that the folk who actually have the model seem to be satisfied with it whereas those who don't, aren't! (probably obvious really - if you don't like the look of it, you won't buy it!).
As a one-time owner of a couple of Heljan 7mm locos, I am sure the running qualities would be completely satisfactory btw!
However, the issue is the look of the model and I'm still torn.
Unfortunately, I can see the 'flatness' of the Heljan front end but I actually still struggle to see what is 'wrong' with the Bachmann model!
Crazy or what!?!
I "know" the SLW is very good (apparently) but I'm not sure why!
Perhaps I'm not much of a modeller really.
Cheers,
John.