Bracket Signal

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Recently oi mostly been building signals.

Here and now I will admit that, until very recently, I had built no signals and know absolutely nothing about the subject. However, I bought some kits from MSE, studied some books and built an SR one for a friend in 7mm and another couple for the club layout which went together reasonably well. As a result club asked me to build the signals for the new 4mm layout. I've already built two which are now on the layout. Here are the two I have in hand at the moment and in primer. Apart from the fact that, after 7mm, this is akin to watch making (admiration and respect to you 2mm modellers!) they've gone together well, and the instructions (MSE) have been fine.

IMG_6190.JPG

However.....(and there's always a however)......

One of the signals I have to build is a MR Splitting Distant. Again, the parts appear to be all OK and fit for purpose but I'm struggling with the post/trimmers/dolls/brackets. Here's the instructions:

IMG_6191.JPG

And here's the relevant section from the "Signals for the Railway Modeller" book by Derek Mundy.

IMG_6192.JPG

These are the parts as provided for the bracket

IMG_6193.JPG

All looks straightforward, but if the parts are laid out thus you'll get a general view of the layout with a bracket etch laid over it's approximate position- note that the trimmers have to be shaped correctly at the ends but that's not the problem.

IMG_6194.JPG

Here the top trimmer has been removed so that it's possible to see the position of the post and dolls.

IMG_6195.JPG

I have removed the etch in this shot for ease of showing the issue. If the brackets are soldered to the post they are supporting nothing as they end up supporting the fresh air between the two trimmers.

IMG_6196.JPG

Soooo.... today's stupid question is, should there be, prototypically, a timber infill between the two trimmers (which in modelling terms could be made from a piece of square rod or even.....a piece of timber:))? If so is it only between post and doll or is it the full length of the trimmers? The Mundy book shows the drawing of the prototype to have a bolts through the trimmers and supporting the dolls. It's also made to look as though the brackets go from the post to underneath the dolls, but this cannot be the case as the distance between the dolls is a minimum of 6ft 6in (2 metres to those who understand centipedes) to a maximum of 10ft (not easily divisible by centipedes, but you get the idea) and at the greater distance the brackets will be holding up fresh air.

So, confused of Buckland would much appreciate advice (John Fitness - are you out there?) so that I can assemble this component. Once complete I anticipate (famous last words) the remaining construction to be plain sailing.

Brian
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
I doubt there will be anything between the two trimmers, on your fret are two pieces that look like a fence, these are the walk boards and sit on top of the trimmers.

But I may be wrong ;)

MD
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
So there are spanning pieces atop the bracket to support the trimmers. That makes perfect sense when you think about it. Shame it was not mentioned in the destructions!
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Dan, it's probably not as bad as that in real life, the photo has been HDR processed; which accentuates the tones and adds a gritty feel as well as removing a lot of natural shadow from under the bracket and boosting the cloud effect. It' still won't be pristine clean mind.

Heather, exactly, which is why Brain is now running for the hills, because now he knows this and in the spirit of WT has to add them ;)

MD
 

Jon Fitness

Western Thunderer
Recently oi mostly been building signals.

Here and now I will admit that, until very recently, I had built no signals and know absolutely nothing about the subject. However, I bought some kits from MSE, studied some books and built an SR one for a friend in 7mm and another couple for the club layout which went together reasonably well. As a result club asked me to build the signals for the new 4mm layout. I've already built two which are now on the layout. Here are the two I have in hand at the moment and in primer. Apart from the fact that, after 7mm, this is akin to watch making (admiration and respect to you 2mm modellers!) they've gone together well, and the instructions (MSE) have been fine.

View attachment 61698

However.....(and there's always a however)......

One of the signals I have to build is a MR Splitting Distant. Again, the parts appear to be all OK and fit for purpose but I'm struggling with the post/trimmers/dolls/brackets. Here's the instructions:

View attachment 61699

And here's the relevant section from the "Signals for the Railway Modeller" book by Derek Mundy.

View attachment 61700

These are the parts as provided for the bracket

View attachment 61701

All looks straightforward, but if the parts are laid out thus you'll get a general view of the layout with a bracket etch laid over it's approximate position- note that the trimmers have to be shaped correctly at the ends but that's not the problem.

View attachment 61702

Here the top trimmer has been removed so that it's possible to see the position of the post and dolls.

View attachment 61703

I have removed the etch in this shot for ease of showing the issue. If the brackets are soldered to the post they are supporting nothing as they end up supporting the fresh air between the two trimmers.

View attachment 61704

Soooo.... today's stupid question is, should there be, prototypically, a timber infill between the two trimmers (which in modelling terms could be made from a piece of square rod or even.....a piece of timber:))? If so is it only between post and doll or is it the full length of the trimmers? The Mundy book shows the drawing of the prototype to have a bolts through the trimmers and supporting the dolls. It's also made to look as though the brackets go from the post to underneath the dolls, but this cannot be the case as the distance between the dolls is a minimum of 6ft 6in (2 metres to those who understand centipedes) to a maximum of 10ft (not easily divisible by centipedes, but you get the idea) and at the greater distance the brackets will be holding up fresh air.

So, confused of Buckland would much appreciate advice (John Fitness - are you out there?) so that I can assemble this component. Once complete I anticipate (famous last words) the remaining construction to be plain sailing.

Brian
Hi Brian,
How far have you set the dolls apart? If they are a splitting distant they need only be 6ft 6" apart as you say. The 10 ft spacing is usually for parallel running lines.
The 2 brackets you have on the etch look to be 2 different sizes too! For a balanced bracket you'll need a matching pair (obvs!)
Where the brackets fit under the trimmers, simply fit a plate for them to "land" under the trimmers as per the pic Mickoo found.
and yes the etched plankwork is for the lampmans staging.
I usually find signal "kits" to be a fairly generic group of parts to assist in building the signal of your choice. Be prepared to shop around for any other bits you need! Scale Signal Supply do some nice etched and cast brass MR signal parts.
HTH

JF
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks Mick. That photo's wonderful, even to being a lower quadrant. I searched on line but didn't find anything. Which is a surprise when you're aware of my famous on line searching abilities - not! I had, however, got a handle on the walking boards/staging.

Heather's got it in one. There's no indication in the instructions of what the brackets are supporting, but the photo shows a cross piece which is just soooo easy to recreate.

Thanks for your help, chaps and chapess. I'll now push on with the build.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Jon. Thanks so much! I've not set the dolls yet - and I'd not noted to date that those brackets actually are different sizes. This is a splitting home, (does such a thing exist? - I'm told it does) so the 6ft 6in spacing will be the one we'll use.

I used SSS for one of the home signals I've already built and liked many aspects. I'd certainly not hesitate to use them again.

Brian
 

Jon Fitness

Western Thunderer
There you go, Mick Nich to the rescue !
A splitting home it is. 6ft spacing between dolls and 1ft difference in height between arms.
Looking forward to seeing it come together as you've made a lovely job of the 2 single post upper quadrants.
Cheers
JF
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks Jon. This is all very helpful. I'll update WT with progress as I go.

It'll have to wait for a bit, though. I'm up to my chuff in instruction folding and foldering for the next release of Finney7 kits ready for Reading.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
At last I've picked up the build again.

IMG_6214.JPG

The two trimmers have been cut to size and the ends shaped. The centres for the post and dolls are marked out. The dolls have not been cut to length yet, but the axles and plates on the non signal arm sides are fitted.

IMG_6215.JPG

The signal arms have been built up and the blinders fitted. Compared with the upper quadrant signals I've built previously these are quite complex assemblies.

IMG_6217.JPG

I finished with a dry run with a signal arm on a doll having fitted the lamp mounting brackets to both.

JF - if you are reading this I'll welcome your advice about how best to drive the signal arms mechanically. (They will be fitted with servos under the baseboard). It seems to me that a number of links will lead to so much free play that movement from the servos will not lead to equivalent movement at the signal arms. In any event I was not supplied with the cast balance weight assemblies when I purchased the materials for the bracket signal so final finishing will have to await sourcing those anyway as a result of which I'll not be at the driving stage for a while yet. Also, should the balance weight assemblies be both on the same side of the post or on opposing sides as I've found examples of both set ups on prototype photos?

As ever, all assistance gratefully received.

Brian
 

Jon Fitness

Western Thunderer
It's all looking good so far Brian. The drive changes direction with 90° cranks. Yes, you will accrue a bit of lost motion in the cranks but a servo will be more than capable of taking all that up as you adjust its travel at the setting up stage. I built a 7mm scale version of of one of these MR signals so I'll dig out some pics in the next few days and post them up here if you want.
Cheers
JF
 
4mm Bracket Signal (MSE)

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Hi Jon.

Many thanks for your advice. I'll have a look at the prototype crank assembly (I have a couple of photos) and with your own photos that should clarify matters.

I spoke to MSE yesterday about the balance weight assemblies which they can supply so I just have to order them.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Hi Jon.

Once again, that's so helpful. I now have the balance weights and assemblies on order so there's nothing preventing me moving on. I was pretty doubtful about driving the signal arms via cranks as per prototype which I initially picked up from Mickoo's example. However yours confirms that it can be done and will be the pattern I'll follow.

This is quite a challenge for me and I doubt if I could have completed it without help from WT. Thank you all.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Another hour and a half in the workshop today, and I'm very pleased with what I've achieved, although it looks so tiny and simple. (Rather like me, really).:)

Using cruel enlargements of the photo kindly provided by Mick and the drawing by Micknich I can show the clip over the top of the lower quadrant signal arm which was threatening to be a bridge too far for my abilities:

Midland Bracket Signal - Copy.jpg Midland Bracket Signal 2.jpg

Jon's pics also show the same thing, and that he's modelled it so it's obviously possible.

This is my result - only one signal arm done so far, but having beaten one in to submission no doubt I can manage another. The end of the axle will be filed back once the complete signal is assembled. The blinder will be bent to shape behind the lamp which has yet to be fitted in final assembly

IMG_6218.JPG IMG_6219.JPG

This was literally beaten - the end of a piece of 0.4mm nickel silver wire was hit several times with a ball pein hammer and the flattened end drilled 0.8mm to accommodate the axle. I suspect that I could have simple used a blob of solder to attach the strap to the end of the axle, but the prototype drawing appears to show a loop in the end of the strap which is what I've tried to recreate.

If I can beat back the snow tomorrow I hope I may get the second arm done and then possibly make up the bracket itself.

Brian
 
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