Bullied Drivers

2-Bil

Western Thunderer
Can someone tell me WHY the centre driver differs from the others ?Dunno the correct term but two "spokes" have their holes (closest to the wheel rim) plugged?not cast?......Also do the Finney overlays copy this feature?........................from one who'd like to know......................Respects B
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
Sorry, can't help with details of Bulleid Firth Brown wheels but I was concerned when reading the thread title that train drivers were being bullied by some nasty TOC management, or maybe in the lunch room (assuming staff facilities still exist).
 

76043

Western Thunderer
Yes, I thought it was a thread about workplace harassment, but then again I find it very difficult to spell Mr O.V.S.B's name anyway... ;)
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Can someone tell me WHY the centre driver differs from the others ?Dunno the correct term but two "spokes" have their holes (closest to the wheel rim) plugged?not cast?......Also do the Finney overlays copy this feature?........................from one who'd like to know......................Respects B
I've been through all my photos and can't see what you're talking about here. Can you show on a photo?

Brian
 

2-Bil

Western Thunderer
Mr Spellchecker wouldn't let me type BULLEID...............honest Guv....................Brian D, this Brian dunno how to magic images up but, Rail -Online has an excellent photo of 21C64 wearing a "sunshine"overcoat at Brighton in 1947 .The wheels are Green so show clearly the "plugged holes".....on the centre Driver.Its a feature common on ALL photos of BBs/WCs, early MNs too,which you can see provided the shutter clicked at the right moment..!............Regards BW
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
I think we're talking about this photo?
BB/WC 4-6-2 | 21C164 1947 Brighton

I can't see the not-holes that are being referred to as I'm on my phone and can't zoom the image. I'll have a look later on.

Yesterday evening I did an internet search and I confess the pattern of holes didn't seem to be matching the description in any photos I found, so I'll be interested to see the source of the query...

Steph
 

simond

Western Thunderer
The holes are there, but look plugged, or to have something close behind them.

It would be a sensible place for balance weights, opposite the crank.

Best
Simon
 

2-Bil

Western Thunderer
Thats the photo Steph.The "not holes " are at "8 and 9 o,Clock".Its a feature duplicated in all the images (1940s to 1960s) of air smoothed BB/WCs I've seen when, as I've said, the shutter clicked at the right moment.On the same site(i don't have Derry or The Power of...book to hand at present) theres a colour close up of Tangmere,s "not holes"in 1963..and a small selection of other shots to shape the point ...34073 at Southampton....81 at Barnstaple.....84 at Eastleigh....94 Oxford...06 Derby.Rail-Photoprints too brings up large enough images to illustrate the Question.........Regards etc.....................................Only noticed a second before posting that TANGMERE had morphed into TANGIER...........................................oh well
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
I think that Simon is on the track of the answer - given the location of the "non-holes", I shall not be surprised to learn that there is a hollow behind the plug and the plug is a cover for a recess for some balance weights.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
There's a balance weight backing plate bolted on behind the wheel casting and the cavity in between filled and no, the Finney7 overlay does not replicate this.

Image1.jpg

The two blanked holes at the front are not smooth and should be recessed. The depth of the recess, it's smoothness and general features are unique to each pouring, there's some pretty ugly lumpy ones out there. The overlay is already half etched thickness to fit in the wheel rim recess, so this feature cannot be replicated in the etch. You need to take the Slaters wheel and fill these two holes on the intermediate driving (trailing shown) wheel.

Image3.jpg

Then when you add the overlay you will get the correct recessed effect.

IMG_8511.jpg

For authenticity you'd also need to add the backing plate bolts and a thin backing plate to the rear of the wheel.

Image2.jpg
It's a small crop (I can reprocess the original for a larger image later if required) but gives a general idea of the weight backing plate.
 
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Pencarrow

Western Thunderer
Hi Mick, have you circled the correct two (not)holes above?

rps20190119_131946.jpg
On this shot they appear to be further round the wheel in a clockwise direction rather than directly below the crank boss.
 

2-Bil

Western Thunderer
Thanks all Very Much for the input...... Masterpiece Models BB/WC driver comes closest to prototype then.............One last thing, a curiosity(for me anyway)on the Rail-Online site.On page 24 theres a photo of Sir Archy Sinclair at Honiton the Tender,s single ladder stiles are early AND late patterns......whys that then???
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
This is one of those "learn something every day" moments. I'd never noticed this feature previously and it's very difficult to see in 99% of my Bulleid pacific photos. However, where the wheel is in the correct position and the camera angle is correct the absence of holes can be seen.

Sorry to say that I'm not going back through them all to see if I can find evidence of the filled holes varying in position!

Out of interest I also looked at some Q1 photos but don't have any with an angle which confirms whether or not they follow the same pattern.

As has been mentioned previously, the overlays are correct. Whether David White would consider producing wheels with the filled holes seems very unlikely, but the mod suggested by Mickoo is the obvious answer, if it floats your boat.

Brian
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Dad,

Q1 won't follow the same pattern. It's not completely obvious, but the wheels are actually very different. On a Q1 they were designed to be fabricated, based around welding sections into a pressing that could be produced using equipment the loco works had in their boiler shops (they were an austerity design after all). It appears that some/many/all later received cast wheels (i.e. genuine Bulleid-Firth-Brown, where Firth-Brown was the casting foundry). But this is why the wheel face is proud of the rim/tyre, not behind it. So, the Q1 has largeish sections welded into the lightening holes in the wheels with lead poured in, rather than what's been shown above.

The balance weights in BB/WC and MNs are far from universal. What's illustrated here is the result of trials and the decision to add dynamic balancing (for the coupling rods) - one assumes to reduce hammer blow on Eastern Section bridges! The connecting rods and lack of return cranks/eccentrics with chain-driven valve gear statically balance as they're 3-cylinder locos. All the holes would have been there as the wheels were cast, otherwise the cores needed to produce the hollow sections in the wheel would have been unsupported when casting.

Steph
 
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