An Unusual Collection

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks for confirming that, Chris. However..... does the Bakerloo Line not run out as far as Harrow & Wealdstone, ie beyond Stonebridge Park - there was a train length spur there for reversing trains the last time I went through Harrow, and that was earlier this year? The Bakerloo Line sheds at Queens park remain and when coming back from town in the early hours of the morning I've seen tube stock stabled there. Certainly Bakerloo Line trains stopped going as far as Watford a lot of years ago.

Interesting that you mention the fourth rail as it's prompted a question. The Met electric loco Sarah Siddons has done trips on the third rail of the Southern Region (as was) not that long ago, so is the absence of the fourth rail such an issue? Next time I go to the big city I must remember to check the third/fourth rail out as far as Harrow.

Tony - thanks for your continued enthusiasm. Still more to come, but we've seen better than 50% of the images now. However there are one or two quite promising ones of stations on the Met yet to come. We've discussed the possibility that Mr D M Herbert may have been an electrical engineer as there's so much of Stonebridge Park and Croxley Green, but it was clearly an enthusiasm for him in view of the number of London Transport images, and the fact that he photographed the wooden slipper block at Rickmansworth. I'd just love someone to pop out of the woodwork and confirm who he is, or perhaps, sadly, was.

Brian
 

cbrailways

Western Thunderer
Thanks for confirming that, Chris. However..... does the Bakerloo Line not run out as far as Harrow & Wealdstone, ie beyond Stonebridge Park - there was a train length spur there for reversing trains the last time I went through Harrow, and that was earlier this year? The Bakerloo Line sheds at Queens park remain and when coming back from town in the early hours of the morning I've seen tube stock stabled there. Certainly Bakerloo Line trains stopped going as far as Watford a lot of years ago.

Interesting that you mention the fourth rail as it's prompted a question. The Met electric loco Sarah Siddons has done trips on the third rail of the Southern Region (as was) not that long ago, so is the absence of the fourth rail such an issue? Next time I go to the big city I must remember to check the third/fourth rail out as far as Harrow.
Brian

Hi Brian. Yes, your correct. Memory fade at work there...... However I think the Bakerloo Line service was cut back to Stonebridge Park in 1982 but gradually restored to Harrow and Wealdstone after 1984, so I was partially correct :D
 
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76043

Western Thunderer
No please don't apologise, I didn't take it that way. I'm laughing about it really because I always thought I was a typeface spotter hotshot!!!
Cheers
Tony
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Here's the dose of ephemera for today.

The first is an Oerlikon Motor Car, M28262M. Once again I believe this to be at Croxley Green, but that assumes there was a workshop there. This picture is sharper than most and there's no "Scrap" endorsement on the bodywork.

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Most distant from the camera appears to be a full 3-car Oerlikon unit. The two cars nearest the camera are clearly not a complete unit. Croxley Green again, I think.

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This looks to be the same subject from the opposite end - but clearly Stonebridge Park, not Croxley Green as I initially suspected.

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Here's the shunter unit again. (See an earlier picture for better details). Stonebridge Park again.

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Finally for this set a really quite nice photo of a Met T stock train. I know not where but doubtless Yorkshire Dave will be along in a minute.....

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....and here's another T stock train, but look at the cab front. The unit above has no beading whereas the one below has quite significant beading. Are these actually two different classes or sub classes? I believe the one below may be at Chesham. Also it's interesting to see the family - or one can surmise that it's a family - the boy in his short trousers and cap, and the girl following behind. That appears to be mother in the dark coat - doubtless father was at work.

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Brian
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Finally for this set a really quite nice photo of a Met T stock train. I know not where but doubtless Yorkshire Dave will be along in a minute.....

Chalfont and Latimer - the Chesham bay platform.

I believe the one below may be at Chesham.

It is Chesham. The slight curved platform, the water tower and the advertising hoarding behind.

Following my journey from Marylebone this morning and our subsequent conversation today I can definitely confirm the locations of the of the T stock photos earlier in the thread taken in the country areas are correct.
 
A

Arun

Guest
There were variations in the T stock - The stock was delivered in three batches - The first in 1927 and built by Metropolitan Carriage & Finance. These were driving cars with the control equipment behind the cab rather than under the floor as on most surface stock on say, the District Railway. These cars were attached to existing [loco-hauled] trailers and control trailers so matched them in appearance.
A second batch of 30 driving motors, 15 trailers and 10 control trailers [aka driving trailers] were ordered in 1928 and delivered two years later. These were built by BRCW with "Metro-Vick" equipment.
A third batch was delivered in 1932/3 from BRCW comprising 18 motor cars, 33 trailers and 14 control trailers but these differed from the earlier deliveries in having steel panelled bodies and their [unique to EMUs at that time] roller bearing axleboxes.
So your two photos show both the earlier and the later stocks.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
From Arun's post it would appear the Chesham Shuttle set is at least comprised of two driving motors - one from two of the three orders.
 
A

Arun

Guest
The car with the beading is also one of the six Metro Vick [MV] cars of the first batch [of 12 cars] in that it has the additional horizontal beading line between the bottom of the cab windows and the buffers. Thus it would eventually have been numbered in the series 2706-2711.
Essentially the first batch of MV cars were designed to work with ex-loco hauled trailers but were capable of being operated in multiple with the later deliveries of the stock.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks again Dave, and Arun. You know, that beading on the front actually makes units which looked elderly then even more old! And, perhaps surpisingly, I'd not recognised the differences previously.

Dave - that Chesham train looks to me like three vehicles. I'll be surprised if you'd not noted that, so I'm assuming that your comment about motor cars is regarding different designs of T stock motor car each end with a trailer in the middle - always assuming that the photo at Chalfont was taken on the same day. Both photos certainly have the same reporting number - 20 - in the cab windows. Thanks also for confirming the location of the earlier photo.

On to the offerings for today,

I reckon this is the Oerlikon shunter at Stonebridge Park again. It's interesting (to me at least) that the motor car nearest the camera has beading, not dissimilar to the T stock. Looking at some of the previous Oerlikon photos it appears that some at least of the driving motor cars were plain and not panelled. Does this suggest that there were several deliveries of Oerlikon cars too?

And here's another question. The destination blind appears to show "Bushey" - as a 2-car unit I reckon it's doubtful that it's in passenger service, hence my suggestion that it may be a shunter. However, why would any unit have a termination station of Bushey? Was there (as Dave has suggested) ever a shuttle between Watford and Bushey?

img394 - Destination Blind Bushey Copy (4).jpg
Next that same T stock train back at Chesham - and a much better exposed shot too! In this one the young boy has boarded the train and appears to be being seen off by mother and daughter. That young chap can't be more than 7 or 8 years old, but it was not altogether unusual for youngsters to travel on the trains alone - in fact I used to do so periodically, sometimes with my sister who is 2 years my junior to meet up with my father after work in London.

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Now a pair of A60 units, but I know not where. There are few enough distinguishing features on this one. Judging by the other photos in the collection I'll guess that this train must be pretty well brand new.

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This appears to be in the same location. P or R stock? This may not help to narrow down the location at this particular time as all the surface stock types seem to have been all over the system at this time.

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This may - or may not - be an interesting shot. Certainly it's rare to have a detail shot of the underpinnings of any unit at this time. By the look of it, and others to follow, the 501 units were brand new at the time, and again this fits with the time profile of the other photos.

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Brian
 
A

Arun

Guest
The train is composed of P stock [or most likely converted CP since the pic is taken after about 1961-2]. It isn't R stock because their cab destination blind was at the top of the window rather than below it as in the picture. It isn't O/CO stock because there is a ventilator above the driving cab end door.

The train is an eight car train [3+3+2] which is a peak hours formation used on the Uxbridge branch [3+3 off-peak hours] so somewhere south of Wembley Park is most likely since the two sets of lines in the foreground are the non-electrified GCR lines, then that may help in further identifying the location.
 
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Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
And here's another question. The destination blind appears to show "Bushey" - as a 2-car unit I reckon it's doubtful that it's in passenger service, hence my suggestion that it may be a shunter. However, why would any unit have a termination station of Bushey? Was there (as Dave has suggested) ever a shuttle between Watford and Bushey?

Interesting to see the West Indian employee which brings some social history to the photos.

There was certainly a shuttle between Watford Junction and Rickmansworth. It's possible Bushey was used for terminating trains which then went onto Croxley Car sheds. Or maybe a staff train between Watford Junction and/or Stonebrige park to Croxley Car sheds.


Now a pair of A60 units, but I know not where. There are few enough distinguishing features on this one. Judging by the other photos in the collection I'll guess that this train must be pretty well brand new.

There is only one 4-car unit here and I believe this is taken at Northwick Park. The ex GC tracks are un-electrifed between Harrow and Marylebone which helps narrow down the location. Northwick Park is the only island platform with an underground entrance/exit and that platform roof profile. The other stations going towards Baker Street are on over bridges.

Explore georeferenced maps - Map images - National Library of Scotland

This appears to be in the same location. P or R stock? This may not help to narrow down the location at this particular time as all the surface stock types seem to have been all over the system at this time.

This is P stock as Arun has confirmed, used mainly on the Uxbridge services. Again, Northwick Park.
 

Engineer

Western Thunderer
I last T 04081961 b line.jpg
Very many thanks for sharing all these pictures with us. This afternoon I was able to share these images with a colleague who is less burdened by the Internet, and he was particularly pleased to see the pictures of electric stock and Diesel locos around and about the DC lines. Our joint viewing gave us both some important new perspectives on other layout and modelling projects, and this is good.
In passing:
The P Stock picture today is already covered so only referring to the other P Stock picture in post 29. I can't get much better than others in an accurate location without a lot of map and plan forensics but the rear view of a signal that seems tall enough for four aspects suggests Metropolitan Main, north end, rather than any other branch.
The T Stock picture in post 93 - having looked at route video from both directions, I reckon the bridge in the background is bridge MR 101, just North of Chorleywood and the site is [was] one of a few locations on the route well-suited to three-quarter train portraits, such as: Metropolitan No 108 with a Down train
On the various mentions of T Stock, you may be interested in the attached image and I trust you understand why there's a line across this digital colour copy. On 4 August 1961, my father hurried home having been tipped off that the last T Stock service run to Uxbridge was to happen, early evening. We trotted back to the station as a family for this moment.
On T Stock, an LT stock designation, a key point on the detail given in posts 127 and 129 before it's too late, and to help the selct few that plan to model these vehicles - I hope to one day. The first batches of these Motor Coaches had Metropolitan-Vickers [M-V] traction equipments and at build these were not compatible with the GEC equipments of the third, 1932 batch. It's just unfortunate coincidence that the Metropolitan operational and engineering stock designations for this family [before LT's big changes to the Met stock in the 1930s] were MW and MV, the -W meaning a Westinghouse brake and Met buckeye automatic couplers and the -V [six motor coaches only] meaning a Vacuum brake with buffers and screw couplings. The six motor coaches originally designated MV retained their extra beading until their end [one featured in the 1963 Centenary parade, I think]. The beading was there because there was an experiment with body structure design - the 6x MV motors in the first batch had wood panels whereas the 6x MW motors in the same batch had steel body panels.
Edited to improve on hurried original and details
 
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oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Arun, Yorkshire Dave and Engineer - thanks so much for filling in the gaps. All this info will be added to the photos when they get to the final filing stage.

For some reason it came to me today that I'm missing some scans. Then I remembered that I'd shared quite a few with Yorkshire Dave previously so had done some post processing on them already. Then I found the file, so for good or ill there will be quite a few images to follow these to complete the set. Anyway, here are today's efforts.

The white roofs and immaculate nature of this set lead me to believe that this must be a brand new 501 unit. I cannot be absolutely certain but I believe the first vehicle to be M61161. Note that the information on the data panels has yet to be picked out in white. I'm inclined to the belief that this is new partly because there's no destination in place on the blind - in fact I'm far from convinced that there's even a blind there yet, and there's certainly no two digit destination number blind in place. There is no sign of the stencilled duty number in the cab (see below for what I mean). Neither am I convinced that there are any shoes on the shoe beams. Also, behind the third vehicle of the set is what could be an Oerlikon motor car. It could even be that the person seen next to it had just disembarked. Now this is my imagination going wild, but could this be the two car Oerlikon unit which I've suggested previously may be a yard shunter having been used to tow the new unit in? Clearly at Stonebridge Park. Oerlikon or LMS unit peeping out from behind.


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Here's another, from the driving trailer end, M75140 leading. This is also pretty new, but shoe are attached to the beam, reporting numbers and destination blind are in place. It's rather disappointing that we can't see what's behind the third vehicle.

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A halfway decent shot (well, compared with many of the others) of Chorley Wood Met Line Station. I reckon it's pretty safe to assume early 1960s.

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Here's another at the same location but this time with what would have been a very new A60 stock train heading for Baker Street.......

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.....and another of Chorleywood, this time with a T stock train heading in the opposite direction.
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And here's a passable shot of Moor Park.



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Brian
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
On the various mentions of T Stock, you may be interested in the attached image and I trust you understand why there's a line across this digital colour copy. On 4 August 1961, my father hurried home having been tipped off that the last T Stock service run to Uxbridge was to happen, early evening. We trotted back to the station as a family for this moment.

This is a nice period photo of the T stock at Ickenham
 

Keith Phillips

Western Thunderer
I'm enjoying seeing these old pictures of the Met. Main line. I started my driving career at Aylesbury and so regularly worked over this section of track. I have to add that it was 1991 when I started but even so not much changed in that period.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Not too many comments with that last submission, so perhaps I'm starting to build a better idea of what's going on using the additional info collected from all the previous responses. I'll be interested in anything you can chuck in the pot, though, Keith. It helps even if it's a "might be here" as that often stimulates other comments.

Here's the lot for today, with drivel comments as usual.

This is fascinating (within the realms of those hardy souls who continue to discuss with followers of this thread:)). This is an LMS driving motor car which appear to have only recently been overhauled and repainted. However, and totally surprisingly, the destination blind reads Rickmansworth! Since the passenger service to Rickmansworth ceased in 1952 is someone having a laugh? The photo is at Stonebridge Park.

img396  Rickmansworth on blind - Copy.jpg
Back to Moor Park and a T stock train on the way to Watford. A nice shot with doors open which shows a considerable tumblehome despite the apparent square profile.

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Ex LMS Driving Motor Car M28016M. Probably Stonebridge Park.

img397  All endorsed May 61 on reverse - Copy (2).jpg
Another view of almost certainly the same vehicle on the same occasion.

img397  All endorsed May 61 on reverse - Copy (3).jpg
Another o the apparently new 501 units.

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And an LMS unit with an Oerlikon car in the background. The pose of the motorman suggests some sort of familiarity with the photographer, reinforcing in my mind the possibility that the photographer works or is, at least, known at Stonebridge Park.

img397  All endorsed May 61 on reverse - Copy (5).jpg

Brian
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Back to Moor Park and a T stock train on the way to Watford. A nice shot with doors open which shows a considerable tumblehome despite the apparent square profile.

With half of the new platforms on the right. Notice the schoolboys on the station seat and what I presume is the photographers bag in the middle of the platform.
 

Engineer

Western Thunderer
Hurried notes again, with potential for memory errors. Moor Park picture in post 137:
Worth noting the bodyside lower curvature, a feature shared with the Metropolitan's Main Line Stock family [a.k.a. 'Dreadnought'] but unlike the MV/MW stock family, the Main Line Stock had a 'turn-under' shape at body ends, too. Metropolitan stock and locomotives have very distinctive 'faces' which are very hard to get right in model form and there are traps for the unwary. Look closely at the end and the body side here - there is an inward taper. I've only had time to refer to an 'unreliable' source but the dimensions are of the order of 8' 6" at base of roof, 8' 9" over body panels. This shape is reflected subtly in the body end panels and in the outer cab windows. There's a triangle of 'headlights' [Met. terminology] on the cab front, by the time of the picture long painted over and not in use. My father's memories had included trains showing purple lights to the front on the H&C route, and so it was no surprise when later I found drawings showing how this was provided in the MV/MW family. Behind each 'headlight' as built, was a disc with four positions, one obscured, one red glass, one clear aperture and one purple glass to provide for the distinctive lamp codes for electric trains on the Metropolitan and associated services.
Agreed, school-boys on the station seat, waiting for a train in the Rickmansworth direction. I'm aware of a large and very good school at Sandy Lodge.
 
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