OzzyO
Western Thunderer
If anything the name Doncaster firebox would have been to do with if a loco got a new firebox, if Doncaster had a set of flanging plates that could be used they would have used them. It could have also have meant that the firebox was made of copper rather than steel?
Osgood
Western Thunderer
Jeff - you're unlikely to find a better price than this one -
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-W-D-A...1368617660?pt=Non_Fiction&hash=item27e65d96bc
I was more than a little annoyed to find the listing having just bought a new copy (which arrived 5 mins ago) for £22 odd
That'll teach me to jump the gun with 'Bay listings!Tony
Len Cattley
Western Thunderer
Thanks for that Tony have just bought it
Len
Len
mickoo
Western Thunderer
if I understand the record correctly, the rebuilt fireboxes came first probably from a Doncaster drawing or design. All the rebuilds seem to have come from Darlington, Gorton, Cowlairs and Crewe. The new fireboxes that Crewe built were to the modified design and came after the first rebuilds.
Im at work right now so cannot reference the record so from memory (which from the prevoius week has been pretty poor LOL) I think rebuilds started 51-52 and new Crewe boilers in 54?
And yes I paid virtually full price for my copy too
even at that price its still good value for the money if you want to model a WD
Len Cattley
Western Thunderer
Haha
dibateg
Western Thunderer
After a break to go partying and a few days by the coast it is back to the workbench. The aim is to get the chassis' finished so that they can be painted and tested. It's that dilemma about when to paint. Preferring to reduce the number of times the loco is dismantled, the painting will be started in the short term. I hate doing the sand pipes - but that is done now. Part of the joy of loco building is the engine picking. 90383 was fitted with AWS in '61, so for my chosen period of 1962, it had to have it. 90492 was not fitted thankfully. Most of the pipe clips are made from phosphor bronze strip or 5 thou brass pressed over the pipes with square ended pliers. Now here is something I didn't know, the AWS bang plate is slightly off centre, I noticed that whilst I was lining up the rivets.. take a look next time you see a picture of one.
For the pickers, 90383 has the rear oilers at right angles to the frames and 4 lubricator feed pipes from the cab running down the boiler on the fireman's side, some locos had 2 pipes each side of the boiler. The infinite minutia of loco detail!
So some cleaning up to do and the steps to add this morning, don't worry Andrew, 90492 will be following immediately!
For the pickers, 90383 has the rear oilers at right angles to the frames and 4 lubricator feed pipes from the cab running down the boiler on the fireman's side, some locos had 2 pipes each side of the boiler. The infinite minutia of loco detail!
So some cleaning up to do and the steps to add this morning, don't worry Andrew, 90492 will be following immediately!
dibateg
Western Thunderer
I've incorporated some of the BR additions to the WD cabs, such as the rarely in the closed position sliding cab windows. They are left over from a DJH Ivatt and will just be seen in the gloom of the cab. Cab seats are unused Sanspareil BR standard steps mounted upside down - thank goodness for the scrap box! Cab doors are scratch built using fine tube and 0.5mm N/S wire. The reverse casting was too low, so it's soldered to the spectacle plate and a dummy base added from scrap. I think I can put the roofs on later. It's a sit in the sun and a beer next I think.
dibateg
Western Thunderer
So I think we are nearly ready for painting after a bit more cleaning up. It was interesting exploring the variation of the lubricator pipes from the cab to the cylinders. Some WD's have 2 on each side, others 4 on the fireman's side. I even found one with all four on the drivers side! These two fall in to the second category, but there is even variation on where the unions are as you can see. I also added the crank and rod next to the firebox - not sure what that is for, blow down or rocking grate?
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Very nice
Looking at the GA's I can't see a full rocking grate, there appears to be a small part in the middle of the firebox in the front third of the grate which is moved by a substantial tube down the centre of the loco but the rest of the grate appears to be fixed?
The extra linkage you've modelled is not fitted to all locos and I'm going to take a wild stab that it's a repositioned linkage (dotted) for the front dampers (solid red) this would make sense as the original route would be down the side of the firebox between the frames would make access difficult.
Looking at the shape of the ash pan I suspect the front damper may also act as a exit for ash when disposing the locomotive, in which case it may not be a damper but a flap to retain ash until disposal. Either way, I think your linkage may control this flappy thingie
Hope that helps.
Looking at the GA's I can't see a full rocking grate, there appears to be a small part in the middle of the firebox in the front third of the grate which is moved by a substantial tube down the centre of the loco but the rest of the grate appears to be fixed?
The extra linkage you've modelled is not fitted to all locos and I'm going to take a wild stab that it's a repositioned linkage (dotted) for the front dampers (solid red) this would make sense as the original route would be down the side of the firebox between the frames would make access difficult.
Looking at the shape of the ash pan I suspect the front damper may also act as a exit for ash when disposing the locomotive, in which case it may not be a damper but a flap to retain ash until disposal. Either way, I think your linkage may control this flappy thingie
Hope that helps.
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Tony,
It's almost certainly blow-down linkage as it looks to be in the right place for that, but perhaps a little high on the throatplate. Getting the linkage to the other parts Mick suggests would be very convoluted and (importantly) require a deal of skilled fitting!
Mick,
What you're describing is a 'drop grate' - there'd be a handle in the cab which would drop the section marked on the drawing. Using the various fire irons. you'd then push the remnants of the fire out through the dropped section into the ashpan. The linkage will just be a piece of steel strip; the 'substantial tube' you can see in the top view is actually part of the brake gear.
Incidentally the flap is indeed a damper - the fact that the ashpan and fire are emptied through it is a secondary use.
Steph
It's almost certainly blow-down linkage as it looks to be in the right place for that, but perhaps a little high on the throatplate. Getting the linkage to the other parts Mick suggests would be very convoluted and (importantly) require a deal of skilled fitting!
Mick,
What you're describing is a 'drop grate' - there'd be a handle in the cab which would drop the section marked on the drawing. Using the various fire irons. you'd then push the remnants of the fire out through the dropped section into the ashpan. The linkage will just be a piece of steel strip; the 'substantial tube' you can see in the top view is actually part of the brake gear.
Incidentally the flap is indeed a damper - the fact that the ashpan and fire are emptied through it is a secondary use.
Steph
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Steph,
The drop grate linkage isn't shown in the plan view, your correct, the tube in the plan view is the brake linkage, in the side view you can see the drop grate linkage and I'm assuming it's tubular simply because it has a dash- dot-dash line down the centre which I always thought represented a tube in a GA drawing?
If it's a blow down linkage then why not present on the GA, the only linkage present is the damper linkage, there being no linkage for a blow down valve, I'm not saying it's not, just cannot see it.
I've attached where I think the revised damper linkage would run, there being a lay shaft across the frames at the throat, it would be no more convoluted than the existing linkage but importantly not jammed between the firebox and frames. All hypothetical of course as I've no clue exactly what it does
and as yet have not found an image in detail of that area, I'm sure the answer is in one of the tomes on the shelf.
The drop grate linkage isn't shown in the plan view, your correct, the tube in the plan view is the brake linkage, in the side view you can see the drop grate linkage and I'm assuming it's tubular simply because it has a dash- dot-dash line down the centre which I always thought represented a tube in a GA drawing?
If it's a blow down linkage then why not present on the GA, the only linkage present is the damper linkage, there being no linkage for a blow down valve, I'm not saying it's not, just cannot see it.
I've attached where I think the revised damper linkage would run, there being a lay shaft across the frames at the throat, it would be no more convoluted than the existing linkage but importantly not jammed between the firebox and frames. All hypothetical of course as I've no clue exactly what it does
and as yet have not found an image in detail of that area, I'm sure the answer is in one of the tomes on the shelf.
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Mick,
Yeah - and that link cuts through one of the main frame stayplates. But I can now see it would work - I can also see that the pivot point is a bit high for a blowdown! I'm surprised it's not shown on the drawings, was the linkage a field modification that could be for either ashpan or blowdown?
The dash-dot-dash line just means a centre line - the draftsman could have put it in to help with drafting the edge lines. Don't forget that we're also many years ahead of the BS guidance on Engineering Drawing and every different industry, works, drawing office and even draftsman would have had their own conventions.
Steph
Yeah - and that link cuts through one of the main frame stayplates
. But I can now see it would work - I can also see that the pivot point is a bit high for a blowdown! I'm surprised it's not shown on the drawings, was the linkage a field modification that could be for either ashpan or blowdown?The dash-dot-dash line just means a centre line - the draftsman could have put it in to help with drafting the edge lines. Don't forget that we're also many years ahead of the BS guidance on Engineering Drawing and every different industry, works, drawing office and even draftsman would have had their own conventions.
Steph
OzzyO
Western Thunderer
Reading all of the replies we are very close.
When you look at the first drawing, below, that looks to be something like how the front damper may have been modified (in red) but that does not say about the "drop grate",
I've had a bit more of a look at the drawing and what I've come up with is the following. The green lines are for the drop grate, the small lever in the cab is the lock, with the large lever the one that operates the drop grate. The pivot for this is in the rear of the drag box area. The levers for the dampers will pivot in the yellow ring, these would have been worked by lifting the levers (as you can see by the blue and light blue lines). If the red line was used (and I think it was) you would have had two two very different places to work the dampers from.
These are just my thoughts,
OzzyO.
PS. it's a pity that the drawing don't show the brake rods.
When you look at the first drawing, below, that looks to be something like how the front damper may have been modified (in red) but that does not say about the "drop grate",
I've had a bit more of a look at the drawing and what I've come up with is the following. The green lines are for the drop grate, the small lever in the cab is the lock, with the large lever the one that operates the drop grate. The pivot for this is in the rear of the drag box area. The levers for the dampers will pivot in the yellow ring, these would have been worked by lifting the levers (as you can see by the blue and light blue lines). If the red line was used (and I think it was) you would have had two two very different places to work the dampers from.
These are just my thoughts,
OzzyO.
PS. it's a pity that the drawing don't show the brake rods.
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Okay, but have you guys found any pictures of locos in WD/MoS service with the linkage as shown on Tony's model?
I'm now wondering whether a Pipe and Rod drawing might be useful!
Steph
I'm now wondering whether a Pipe and Rod drawing might be useful!
Steph
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Okay, but have you guys found any pictures of locos in WD/MoS service with the linkage as shown on Tony's model?
I'm now wondering whether a Pipe and Rod drawing might be useful!
Steph
I'm now wondering whether a Pipe and Rod drawing might be useful!
Steph
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Good question, after my last post and during the day between this and that I'd been pondering this conundrum and finally found some time this afternoon to open the books. One of the tomes (Irwell Press) notes the linkage is 'believed' to be for the original blow down valve used overseas and was removed in later years, certainly for the 2-10-0 class, we may assume the same applies to the 2-8-0 according to the text. Those locos fitted with the linkage were WD locos that were destined to work overseas, those without did not serve abroad....as far as I can ascertain at the moment. There are at first glance a hand full of photos of early WDs with the linkage but passed direct to BR service and photos of WDs abroad or destined abroad with out the linkage.
Sadly both books deal mainly with WDs in the UK and make little reference or details to those that at minimum served overseas, just having a WD number is no sure sign they worked abroad, all a bit of a pickle really and will need more time to unravel.
This would mean that the GA kindly supplied by Mick of this parish could be for a UK only allocated loco and not an overseas allocated loco.