Prototype A day out in Toton

Rob R

Western Thunderer
Here we go again, another half dozen, this time in and around Toton.

As before, if you want anything re-scanned at a higher dpi shout up.

Assumed copyright is with me (might be a couple of exceptions - will point them out when we get there), you are all free to use them for personal use. If you wish to re-post/publish drop me a line and I''ll try and get a better scan.

The date is the 5th June 1937.

Toton 01.jpg Straight in with a subject that typifies Toton. Garratt 4977 poses in the garden.

Toton 02.jpg
4977 again.
This print and the next is marked "negative sold to W. Potter". If Mr Potter or his successors have any objections to these images being posted here I will of course remove them.

Toton 03.jpg
Garratt 4980 out and about. I'll have a play later to see if the wagons will come up any clearer.

Toton 04.jpg
Flatiron 2032 and driver pause for the camera.

Toton 05.jpg
8F 8047. The back of the print just says "New Stanier" Again, I'll have a play with the wagons.

Toton 06.jpg Just for Ian.
G&SWR 0-6-2t 16906 is out amongst some interesting wagonry.

Toton 07.jpg
16906 just shows her bunker rear. The left wagon is Settle Speakman and the right I suspect as a Butterley.

That's it for now. Having finished with a little bit of Scotland the next couple of "Days Out" will be around Glasgow then on to Saltburn, York, Doncaster, Leeds, Manchester, Gorton (I know it's Manchester as well!!), Liverpool, Chester, North Wales, Wolverhampton, Birmingham, Derby, the High Peak and a little bit of narrow gauge. I don't think I've missed anything but.....

TTFN

Rob
 

Ian@StEnochs

Western Thunderer
Here we go again, another half dozen, this time in and around Toton.

As before, if you want anything re-scanned at a higher dpi shout up.

Assumed copyright is with me (might be a couple of exceptions - will point them out when we get there), you are all free to use them for personal use. If you wish to re-post/publish drop me a line and I''ll try and get a better scan.

The date is the 5th June 1937.

View attachment 83098 Straight in with a subject that typifies Toton. Garratt 4977 poses in the garden.

View attachment 83099
4977 again.
This print and the next is marked "negative sold to W. Potter". If Mr Potter or his successors have any objections to these images being posted here I will of course remove them.

View attachment 83100
Garratt 4980 out and about. I'll have a play later to see if the wagons will come up any clearer.

View attachment 83101
Flatiron 2032 and driver pause for the camera.

View attachment 83102
8F 8047. The back of the print just says "New Stanier" Again, I'll have a play with the wagons.

View attachment 83103 Just for Ian.
G&SWR 0-6-2t 16906 is out amongst some interesting wagonry.

View attachment 83104
16906 just shows her bunker rear. The left wagon is Settle Speakman and the right I suspect as a Butterley.

That's it for now. Having finished with a little bit of Scotland the next couple of "Days Out" will be around Glasgow then on to Saltburn, York, Doncaster, Leeds, Manchester, Gorton (I know it's Manchester as well!!), Liverpool, Chester, North Wales, Wolverhampton, Birmingham, Derby, the High Peak and a little bit of narrow gauge. I don't think I've missed anything but.....

TTFN

Rob

Rob,

Excellent to see ‘new’ views of a SouWest loco. The engine is one of the 1 class, the RH Whitelegg version of Peter Drummond’s 0-6-2 Goods tank. A very successful design and one of these, 16905, was the only G&SW loco allocated a BR number. Four others went into industrial service and lasted until the mid 50’s

The long straight ‘handrail’ in front of the cab opening is not a handrail at all but the water tank level gauge. This was an LMS fitting which was added from around 1929 but not to all locos in the class. It is a simple tube with holes spaced from top to bottom which, when the tap is opened, the water flows out showing the water level.

The second view shows the circular plate which can be swivelled over the rear spectacle glass to protect it when coaling. This was a fitting on all the Manson tanks but Whitelegg reintroduced it as Drummond did not fit it on engines built when he was in charge.

Ian.
 

mswjr

Western Thunderer
Excellent photos, W potter was a well known photographer here in Glos,He has long since past away,And i think that Kidderminster (svr) had all his photos.
 

Rob R

Western Thunderer
Excellent photos, W potter was a well known photographer here in Glos,He has long since past away,And i think that Kidderminster (svr) had all his photos.

Thank you for that.

Some of the scottish photos yet to come have "negative sold to W. Potter" on the back as well, so the question is - can I still post them here?
Is the copyright presumed to have passed on with the negative even though the print I have was produced before the negative was sold?

Can I have a management take on this please as I don't want to cause any bother.

Thanks

Rob
 

adrian

Flying Squad
Some of the scottish photos yet to come have "negative sold to W. Potter" on the back as well, so the question is - can I still post them here?
Is the copyright presumed to have passed on with the negative even though the print I have was produced before the negative was sold?

Can I have a management take on this please as I don't want to cause any bother.
My understanding is that the copyright remains with the original photographer. The copyright does not automatically transfer with the sale of the negative. The original photographer may sell/transfer his "copyright" with a negative but this would be a separate contract to the negative.

If the original photographer is unknown then copyright expires 50 years after first made available to the public. Given the subject matter I think it safe to assume they were "public" prior to 1968 so I'd say if the original photographer is unknown then the copyright has expired.

I hope that helps.
 

Rob R

Western Thunderer
Thank you Adrian.

It is only a half dozen or so prints that are marked as sold to Mr Potter.

50 years from the late 30's takes us to the 80's but near enuf' :)

Some of the other prints are marked "Platt" in a different handwriting to the captions. My thinking here is that that is posibly the printer hand and the photo's were taken "Platt"?
Unfortunately most of the old hands I knew at Dean Hall (MMRS) are long gone but I do vaguely remember a George Platt who was probably about the right age to have taken these views in his youth.
I suspect we will never know for sure but I am greatful they passed to Roy, my late father-in-law so that I could share them with you.

I see little point in having a collection of historic photos that no one can see......

Rob
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
To add to Adrian's comment above, if the photographer is known then the copyright period is 75 years for photographs... so pre-1940 is safe.

Some of the other prints are marked "Platt" in a different handwriting to the captions. My thinking here is that that is posibly the printer hand and the photo's were taken "Platt"?
If the location of the photos is the north west, or the subjects are L&NWR or GCR stock, then the probability is G H Platt; Geoff Platt came from the Manchester area... was an academic and taught at Kings College London... member of HMRS... provided me with photographs.
 

Rob R

Western Thunderer
To add to Adrian's comment above, if the photographer is known then the copyright period is 75 years for photographs... so pre-1940 is safe.


If the location of the photos is the north west, or the subjects are L&NWR or GCR stock, then the probability is G H Platt; Geoff Platt came from the Manchester area... was an academic and taught at Kings College London... member of HMRS... provided me with photographs.


There are lots of LNWR and GCR views amongst others. For someone based around Manchester there is very little L&Y .
 

adrian

Flying Squad
To add to Adrian's comment above, if the photographer is known then the copyright period is 75 years for photographs... so pre-1940 is safe.
Hi - I'm not sure where you got the 75 years from so I did a little digging and it seems that my original view of 50 years is wrong /out of date as well.

There are a few wrinkles if a photograph was "published" between 1957 and 1989 but it appears that basically copyright duration is 70 years, if the photographer is known then it's 70 from the death of the photographer, if the photographer is unknown then it's 70yrs from when "first made available to the public".

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...-management/non-crown-copyright-flowchart.pdf
 

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Rob R

Western Thunderer
Hi - I'm not sure where you got the 75 years from so I did a little digging and it seems that my original view of 50 years is wrong /out of date as well.

There are a few wrinkles if a photograph was "published" between 1957 and 1989 but it appears that basically copyright duration is 70 years, if the photographer is known then it's 70 from the death of the photographer, if the photographer is unknown then it's 70yrs from when "first made available to the public".

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...-management/non-crown-copyright-flowchart.pdf

So as the identity of the photographer is not known for certain, does that mean the copyright is with me for the next 70 years? (not that I'm going to last that long!!).

Rob
 

Wagonman

Western Thunderer
So as the identity of the photographer is not known for certain, does that mean the copyright is with me for the next 70 years? (not that I'm going to last that long!!).

Rob

I suppose, technically if these photos were the work of G H Platt they would still be in copyright – I'm not sure when he died but it was a lot less than 70 years ago. On the other hand I don't see how his estate could easily assert a claim of copyright on such flimsy evidence.
 

Rob R

Western Thunderer
I suppose, technically if these photos were the work of G H Platt they would still be in copyright – I'm not sure when he died but it was a lot less than 70 years ago. On the other hand I don't see how his estate could easily assert a claim of copyright on such flimsy evidence.

Unless the estate still had the negatives which I suspect is fairly unlikely.

Unless the Management feel that WT (and them in particular!) will end up with a whole load of :shit: I will continue to upload more "Days Out" so that you guys can enjoy/learn/build better models from them.

The alternative is to put the back in the albums forever and let them fade away............................................

Rob

Sorry. Too many unlesses in that lot. :-(
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Unfortunately most of the old hands I knew at Dean Hall (MMRS) are long gone but I do vaguely remember a George Platt who was probably about the right age to have taken these views in his youth.
Yesterday I had the good fortune to speak to an old friend who, of similar age to myself, was a young member of MMRS in the early 19790s. My friend confirmed that Geoff Platt was a MMRS at that time... and he was not able to expand upon the idea of "George Platt".
 

Rob R

Western Thunderer
George Platt is probably a figment of my imagination.
I was involved with the MMRS c1983 to 1990 and the grey cells have leaked a bit since then......

Rob
 
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