A Garden Railway Pipedream: the odyssey continues

Discussion in 'Layout Progress' started by Dikitriki, 7 August 2013.

  1. 40126

    40126 Western Thunderer

    +1 :thumbs:, +1 ;)

    Steve :cool:
  2. taliesin

    taliesin Western Thunderer

    Nothing wrong with just four points and a crossover at all, i have seen many first attempts at a Garden Railway with far too many, a bit like a child's 8 by 4 layout with points going everywhere just because there can be. Simplicity is a virtue outdoors and less can often be more.
    The big advantage of being outdoors is the natural light, greenery and long continuos runs incorporating long sweeping curves, just my two pence worth, cheers Rob
    Steve Cook and Bob like this.
  3. Simon

    Simon Flying Squad

    You've left out the pigeon poo:))

    Joking apart I think you are right. The G1 layout in last month's Railway Modeller was a case in point, although it also looked like a lot of fun.

    I'm intending to visit RailWells this morning where I will hopefully buy some correctly sized brass strip for making tiebars for the relatively few points on my line.

  4. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad


    That layout in RM was super. Well laid and run with nice stock....and exactly what I don't want. It comes under the category of dominating the garden.

    Thank you all for your ideas and support. I shall plan over the winter and see what happens next year.

    Allan sent me the results of his survey......

    Garden railway.jpg
    You can see that the difference between max and min heights is 79cm, just over 3' which is ideal I reckon, and will add interest while keeping the line flat - much easier to build, says he with zilch experience.

    Stumpytrain and 3 LINK like this.
  5. daifly

    daifly Western Thunderer

    Erm... 79cm is about 2' 8" here in Wilts!
  6. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad


    I really should go through all the thought processes. It makes sense, honest.

    At 0 height, the line has to cross a substantial (above ground) tree root. It will therefore need to be raised a few inches on a little bridge to allow for movement either side. When this is taken into account, the viaduct will be at just over 3' off the ground.

    Simples.....if I explain myself.


  7. daifly

    daifly Western Thunderer

    Now Oi understands it!
  8. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad


    Well, nearly 2 years of kicking this around, and it's less of a pipedream, and more of a probability. In fact, the landscaping work is likely to start this summer. I'm still trying very hard to tie the layout into the garden, and as a result of a visit to a friend's garden, and pinching his ideas, I am going to incorporate a fairly significant water feature in to the top 180 degree curve, round which the line will run.

    We have a local landscape gardening firm who are going to do this, and I thought that I might as well get them to do the foundations for the railway in so far as it interacts with the water feature. This means, fingers crossed, that about 25% of the base will be laid this year, which will give me a good start and the impetus to continue.

    I have refined the ideas a little bit in that the inner line will be G1, and the outer line will be G1/G3 (G1 but with a 'third rail' on the outside to accommodate G3). I also like the idea of running 45mm narrow gauge a là Steve Cook (which is my wife's preferred scale - she wants a R/C narrow gauge loco). So now I have to work out clearances, and would ask you good people who run in these scales what the clearances should be. I assume I need more clearance for SM45 than for standard gauge G1, but am unsure as to the space needed for SM45/G3.

    So if my minimum radius is 10 foot, how far apart should the tracks be round the curve, and how wide should the total track base be, remembering that the G3 centre is not the SM45 centre on the outside track.

    isambardme, jonte, chrisb and 3 others like this.
  9. Dave Bowden

    Dave Bowden Western Thunderer

    Hi Richard

    I shall follow your progress with interest, I'm also trying to plan a garden layout but with mixed gauge O & G1, points could be a challenge!

    isambardme likes this.
  10. Phill Dyson

    Phill Dyson Western Thunderer

    Don't like the multi scale idea at all myself. ...each to their own ;)
  11. ceejaydee

    ceejaydee Western Thunderer

    I've run several different scales on my very modest 45mm gauge track and given it is at ground level with only nature as scenery it works well for me.
    Were I to add lineside buildings and other scale relevant details then maybe certain combinations would look odd but no doubt I'd still enjoy running.

    I may have some 16mm scale relevant track dimensions, centres etc. if I can hunt my 16mm association handbook out.

    If I were building a permanent layout in 45mm gauge with multi scale running potential then I'd probably add 7/8" scale to my considerations for clearances as you (or your Mrs) may be tempted at some point for some 2' gauge prototypes on your line.
  12. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad

    I must admit that I have a lot of sympathy for Phill's viewpoint - it's one of the issues I have considered at some length. In the end I decided that my finescale aspirations were fully met by Heyside, and that the garden layout was simply to watch the trains go by, but that I particularly wanted the opportunity to run live steam. There will be no scenery or buildings in the traditional sense, just trains in the landscape. That being the case, I wanted to give myself (and my mates) the maximum number of options.

    I don't know what I will be doing in a few years' time, but I do foresee a greater interest in live steam, and it seems sensible to plan for as many eventualities as I reasonably can, rather than try to adapt something at a later date. So I am open to ideas and advice as I am starting from a zero knowledge base in these scales.

    isambardme and Dan Randall like this.
  13. taliesin

    taliesin Western Thunderer

    Looking at your choice of scales and gauges Richard I would have thought the recommended clearance for a Gauge 3 twin track would do, maybe they publish their standards online, cheers Rob
  14. ceejaydee

    ceejaydee Western Thunderer

    I agree and would say that most of the garden layouts I admired in my youth (and still do) tended to be 7mm scale such as Crewchester and The Wingham Branch and I see that Phill's layout is a natural successor to these 'O Gauge Greats'
    I have certainly followed his progress keenly over the years on different fora with complete respect and admiration for his creativeness and ability to focus on a single scale/gauge combination and timescale with superb and believable results :thumbs:

    Things changed for me in regard to my ideas on garden railways when I discovered narrow gauge and read the writings of a certain Mr Jones of Compton Down Fame.
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  15. jamiepage

    jamiepage Western Thunderer

    I recall the Gauge 3 Society did indeed publish track centre/ platform clearance type dimensions somewhere, a while back. I will root through what I still have and let you know what I can find. Unless someone else can beat me to it.
  16. jamiepage

    jamiepage Western Thunderer

    Ah, sorry, that didn't take long. I have found a reference to the G3S newsletter that contained the info., but I don't have it anymore (It's newsletter 22 of Sept 1995. Sorry about that.
  17. Steve Cook

    Steve Cook Flying Squad

    I've had a think Richard.

    I'm waiting to hear back from my local track owner as to what track spacing he used (I know it is larger than standard G1 specs to take into account the American contingent within our group), I'll let you know his reply as we have run both 7/8ths stock and 16mm stock at the same time with no concerns around his 10 foot curves.

    Size wise, 16mm locos seem to be 115 to 125mm wide, 7/8ths stock is around 120 to 125 mm wide and a G3 coach is 120mm wide.

    I did some quick mock ups with my stock, on a 9.5' radius curve the middle of a G3 coach (and mine are @60' over buffers) overhangs the rail by 40mm from coach body to the flange side of the inner rail. A 115mm wide 16mm loco, at full diagonal twist on a 9' radius curve projects 45mm over the flange side of the outer rail.

    If you added those two together with 10mm clearance, that gives you 95mm. Add in the relevant track gauges and you pretty much arrive at a centre to centre spacing of 149.25mm (for 45 to 63.5). Take off the 9.25 offset because your G3 runs on the outside of your 45mm loop and it drops down to 140mm, comparing favourably with the recommended spacing for curves for non-British stock on the G1MRA website.

    I think G3 standards are around 165mm for normal curves (say 12 - 15' radius) but I can't lay my hands on those dimensions at the moment.

    If you want to protect for everything, 160mm centre to centre (G1 to G3, so @150mm for G1 to G1) will cover nearly everything with your proposed tracks. If someone turns up with an Aster Big Boy you might just have to let them fly solo :)

    As to how wide the base is, some of it depends on whether you are going to up on stilts, grow bushes either side of the line or do something different. As a minimum I'd propose 90mm from the centre of the G3 track and 80mm from the G1 track, so a minimum base width of 330mm. At those dimensions you are not really protecting for derailments, rollovers or stringing, but that should give you a reasonable starting point.

    Dave Bowden and Dikitriki like this.
  18. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad

    Jamie, thanks for having a look.

    Steve, thanks for taking the time to go through that. I have worked my way through and understand the logic. At this stage, of course, it's a matter of specifying the location and the width of the trackbed, so the landscape gardeners know what they are working with. If you look at the plan above, this part of the trackbed will be at ground or near ground level, and cover markers 13, 14, and 1-5 inclusive, or 23.2 metres of a total of 49.1 metres. Gosh, that's 47% of the trackbed:).

    I envisage a concrete foundation and block build for this section, either back-filled grass or rockery on the outside. I am yet to decide on my approach to the rest, other than there will be a concrete viaduct in front of the fruit trees. I need to discuss with Linda how to incorporate the rest in the garden.

  19. Peter

    Peter Western Thunderer

  20. Peter

    Peter Western Thunderer

    I am sorry that I did not do a good job of the address of the article. At http://www.zelmeroz.com/canesig/resources/resource-02hbk.html appears the following where you will find 28 Modelling Netherdale:

    Modelling Cane Railway Basics
    By Lynn Zelmer et al: 01 Introduction; 02 Queensland's Sugar Industry; 03 Engineering and Operations; 04 Modelling; 05 Creating the ANGRMS Dioramas; 06 Modelling Sugar Cane Part 1; 07 Portable Cane Track; 08 Modelling the Bundaberg Jenbach 0-6-0 Diesel; 09 Modifying the Colonial Baldwin 0-4-0; 10 Wholestick Cane Truck; 11 Kitbashing Freelance Wagons/Bins; 12 Modelling Challenges; 13 Resources; 14 Scale/Gauge Choices; 15 Comeng 'G' Inspired On30 loco; 16 Modelling Sugar Cane Part 2; 17 Modelling Palm Trees; 18 4 Wheel Box Wagon; 19 Large Scale Cane Wagons; 20 Novice HO Cane Train; 21 On30 Diorama; 22 Navo (Fiji) Navvy Car; 23 HOn30 Wholestick Truck; 24 Laser Cutting Intro; 25 On30 Tourist Railway Carriage; 26 Working Cuban Cane Loader; 27 Modelling Sugar Cane (Couch Grass); 28 Modelling Netherdale; 29 3D Printing: HOn30 Cane Trucks; 30 Modelling a Mill Interior; 31 Card Modelling (and 2011 NG Convention modelling competition details); 32 Modelling Coolum (B-B DH) in 7mm; 33 Cuban Bogie Cane Wagons; 34 Queensland Cane Locos in HO; 35 Modelling the Caledonian Collieries Rail Tractor; 36 Sugar Cane using Wire Armatures; 37 Steve Pettit's On30 Lomo Lomo Fijian Cane Tramway;