Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Nice. I did model the BLS many moons ago.
An Unusual Collection
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
Nice. I did model the BLS many moons ago.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks Dave.
I'd never have got as far as the railways, let alone the locations without your advice.
On that basis you can probably help with this one. Certainly Switzerland but I know nothing else.
Brian
I'd never have got as far as the railways, let alone the locations without your advice.
On that basis you can probably help with this one. Certainly Switzerland but I know nothing else.
Brian
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Solothurn Bahnhof. SZB - Solothurn-Zollikofen-Bern Bahn now part of the RBS - Regionalverkehr Bern-Solothurn
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
I knew you'd have the answer, Dave. Thank you.
Here's the final pair, then we're back to the beginning to review the early part of the album. Some of these you've seen already, Dave, and provided details. However these two appear to be the same mountain railway - look at the gradient behind the EMU. I think the insignia is RhB which would suggest this is Rhaetian Railway.
Brian
Here's the final pair, then we're back to the beginning to review the early part of the album. Some of these you've seen already, Dave, and provided details. However these two appear to be the same mountain railway - look at the gradient behind the EMU. I think the insignia is RhB which would suggest this is Rhaetian Railway.
Brian
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
So here's the start of the album with the details already garnered. If anyone has more to amplify the descriptions I'll be delighted. In some cases Mr Herbert has provided some notes too.
This is described as 3-car Electric Test Train at Chesham on 11th September 1960. It is clearly T stock and well patronised. Possibly a special?
This one is described as a 4-coach F (Tank) Stock at Watford. Special Outing. 18 September 1960. Nos 4627, 8084, 8093, 4638 (BTH). T Stock 1930 Motorcoach on Right (MV).
12.15pm Chorleywood - Wembley Park ex-Chesham Test Train. Met Bo Bo Electric Loco No10 W E Gladstone. 6 Coach train of steam stock.
2709. T Class 1927 Stock Motor Coach at Watford. 18 September 1960.
Notes from original copy: Electric Test Train at Cattle Bridge (probably Chorleywood). To Amersham. 3.20. (Probably 20 August 1960). 1932 Motor Car 2747. T Stock.
6707. LT ex-Met Railway T Stock 1920 or 1923 Driving Trailer. Amersham. c1961.
More to come......
Brian
This is described as 3-car Electric Test Train at Chesham on 11th September 1960. It is clearly T stock and well patronised. Possibly a special?
This one is described as a 4-coach F (Tank) Stock at Watford. Special Outing. 18 September 1960. Nos 4627, 8084, 8093, 4638 (BTH). T Stock 1930 Motorcoach on Right (MV).
12.15pm Chorleywood - Wembley Park ex-Chesham Test Train. Met Bo Bo Electric Loco No10 W E Gladstone. 6 Coach train of steam stock.
2709. T Class 1927 Stock Motor Coach at Watford. 18 September 1960.
Notes from original copy: Electric Test Train at Cattle Bridge (probably Chorleywood). To Amersham. 3.20. (Probably 20 August 1960). 1932 Motor Car 2747. T Stock.
6707. LT ex-Met Railway T Stock 1920 or 1923 Driving Trailer. Amersham. c1961.
More to come......
Brian
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Poschiavo Bahnhof/Stazione . On the RhB Berninabahn line from St. Moritz via Pontresina to Tirano in Italy.
76043
Western Thunderer
Great stuff again. Just one extra point on the NY stock similarity to District stock, is that once the District was part of the Underground group, the US influence grew as Charles Tyson Yerkes the US financier was in control. He of the observatory fame.
This extends right down to today as carriages are referred to as cars on the tube, as the sign below in an S Stock car proves.
This extends right down to today as carriages are referred to as cars on the tube, as the sign below in an S Stock car proves.
Tim Watson
Western Thunderer
Being lazy and just mulling over an idea, without doing any research, can I ask a question of the knowledgeable? Would there be any small sections of line / stations where Oerlikon stock and MET Bo Bo locos would be seen together? Perhaps an idea for a cameo layout.
Tim
Tim
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Only where the lines crossed each other in the open. The Met crosses the LNW lines near Northwick Park and the now closed Rickmansworth Church St branch. Addison Road possibly if you use rule #1 - you can always justify a Met Bo-Bo on a special working.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Dave - thanks for your confirmation of the last two Swiss photos.
76043 - I'd not thought of that connection with regard to these photos, although I was aware of it. It may also be that there was a generic design influence at the time, although continental Europe seemed to go on its own sweet way! As for the use of "cars", that's an interesting observation. I wonder where the cross over from carriages to cars occurred? I reckon the Dreadnoughts were definitely carriages, and the tube stock cars, but what about T stock?
Tim - a super thought for a cameo. I spent many happy hours at Northwick Park, watching the Met Bo-bos and ER/LMR trains on the GC passing over the ex LNW lines. Of course, the line from Euston won hands down at the time, with Princesses and Coronations as the A3s were no longer operating on the ex GC lines although there was a regular V2 turn on the South Yorkshireman - same loco on the up and down train in to Marylebone.
So, on to another half dozen. As stated previously these are published regardless of technical status as even the least obvious show the infrastructure. The descriptions are those from Mr Herbert again.
9718 - possible ID. LT ex Met Rly 7-compartment T Stock Trailer. Amersham. c1961.
41284 Chesham. Last Day of Steam Shuttle Operation. 11 September 1960
41284. Last Day of Steam Shuttle Operation. 11 September 1960. Chesham.
42249. Arr. Chorleywood on it's way to London. Date Unknown.
60014 Silver Link with Pennine Pullman at West Hampstead. 12 May 1956
67778. Rickmansworth in ER Days. (Shed Code 34E was Neasden until 1958.when the LMR took over, leading to the demise of the GCR).
Brian
76043 - I'd not thought of that connection with regard to these photos, although I was aware of it. It may also be that there was a generic design influence at the time, although continental Europe seemed to go on its own sweet way! As for the use of "cars", that's an interesting observation. I wonder where the cross over from carriages to cars occurred? I reckon the Dreadnoughts were definitely carriages, and the tube stock cars, but what about T stock?
Tim - a super thought for a cameo. I spent many happy hours at Northwick Park, watching the Met Bo-bos and ER/LMR trains on the GC passing over the ex LNW lines. Of course, the line from Euston won hands down at the time, with Princesses and Coronations as the A3s were no longer operating on the ex GC lines although there was a regular V2 turn on the South Yorkshireman - same loco on the up and down train in to Marylebone.
So, on to another half dozen. As stated previously these are published regardless of technical status as even the least obvious show the infrastructure. The descriptions are those from Mr Herbert again.
9718 - possible ID. LT ex Met Rly 7-compartment T Stock Trailer. Amersham. c1961.
41284 Chesham. Last Day of Steam Shuttle Operation. 11 September 1960
41284. Last Day of Steam Shuttle Operation. 11 September 1960. Chesham.
42249. Arr. Chorleywood on it's way to London. Date Unknown.
60014 Silver Link with Pennine Pullman at West Hampstead. 12 May 1956
67778. Rickmansworth in ER Days. (Shed Code 34E was Neasden until 1958.when the LMR took over, leading to the demise of the GCR).
Brian
76043
Western Thunderer
Brian,
The General was also registered in Paris for the early years of it's operation, until bought by the Underground group, so the early history of LT is quite interesting from that point of view.
I would think the use of car was from the Underground group, then LT, with the Met probably going their own way with carriages for as long as LT let them get away with it. ;-)
But truth be told I don't know what the met called their emu cars.
Tony
The General was also registered in Paris for the early years of it's operation, until bought by the Underground group, so the early history of LT is quite interesting from that point of view.
I would think the use of car was from the Underground group, then LT, with the Met probably going their own way with carriages for as long as LT let them get away with it. ;-)
But truth be told I don't know what the met called their emu cars.
Tony
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Ah yes, Tony. That's a very good point. I've mentioned previously that when I was commuting in to town on the Bakerloo/Met in the mid 60s the whole underground could be on strike - except for the Met. They considered themselves elitist and not bound by the same set of rules as the other lines. After all, the Met, even when London Transport, had some real express/limited stop services. I suspect their motormen may have been in a different union to the rest of the underground, but I can't remember now. Until the line north of Amersham was given up they seemed to believe that they were rather independent of London Transport. I reckon the truncating of the Met to Amersham was purely a management ploy to put them in their place!
Certainly I used the Met to get to work on several occasions when the other lines were not running. It involved driving to a Met station but was worth it for the kudos when I was one of a very small number to reach the office.
But it's all in the folklore.
Brian
Certainly I used the Met to get to work on several occasions when the other lines were not running. It involved driving to a Met station but was worth it for the kudos when I was one of a very small number to reach the office.
But it's all in the folklore.
Brian
76043
Western Thunderer
I'm currently reading Thirty Years at Bricklayers Arms by Michael Jackman and he wrote that even in BR days some New Cross Gate drivers were still wearing their LB&SCR cap badges!!
Traditions were long lasting it seems.
Mind you I do recall the A stock, possibly before refurbishment, but definitely afterwards, had the old Met crest near the drivers cab. I had wondered if it would make an appearance on the S stock, there's still plenty of time, even if it is shared with the District.
Tony
Traditions were long lasting it seems.
Mind you I do recall the A stock, possibly before refurbishment, but definitely afterwards, had the old Met crest near the drivers cab. I had wondered if it would make an appearance on the S stock, there's still plenty of time, even if it is shared with the District.
Tony
Tim Watson
Western Thunderer
Many thanks, I had a look at those locations: the WCML is a bit of a beast at Northwick Park and the arrangements at Rickmansworth would end up looking like Chiltern Green. So, maybe not. Addison Road? One model of London is enough for a lifetime, thanks.
I do, however, have a glorious 2mm scale model of ‘Sherlock Holmes’, made by the late Denys Brownlee, which would look wonderful in action and the Oerlikon set from CF. Trouble is, you can only take on so many projects...
Tim
Posts 369, 370, 375 Crossings of Met and LNW services
No great consolation or easy answer, alas, but there is one alternative that I've seriously sized up for modelling [and maybe haven't quite given up on]. It would be a replica of the magnificent and always uplifting experience [especially dawn and sunset] of the rides across the viaducts and bridges that cross the vale containing the Kilburn/Brondesbury area, with the views towards the heights of Hamsptead and south towards Kensington and Chelsea. In my modelling era, two pairs of Metropolitan tracks through Kilburn & Brondesbury, two of which were fast lines, plus the main line to and from Marylebone. Below, the section of the electrified North London between West Hampstead and Brondesbury stations. A possibility?
No great consolation or easy answer, alas, but there is one alternative that I've seriously sized up for modelling [and maybe haven't quite given up on]. It would be a replica of the magnificent and always uplifting experience [especially dawn and sunset] of the rides across the viaducts and bridges that cross the vale containing the Kilburn/Brondesbury area, with the views towards the heights of Hamsptead and south towards Kensington and Chelsea. In my modelling era, two pairs of Metropolitan tracks through Kilburn & Brondesbury, two of which were fast lines, plus the main line to and from Marylebone. Below, the section of the electrified North London between West Hampstead and Brondesbury stations. A possibility?
post 372: "... what the met called their emu cars."
I'm always a bit wary when terminology comes up for discussion, especially when it's used from outside, looking in, as it can be an emotive subject and have far-reaching consequences if the usage goes wrong and then viral. Will have a go for the Metropolitan Railway specifically, as I'd prefer the search engines to come up with what I aim to be sound and traceable answers ...
The EMU stock from the late 1920s and 1930s, with compartment hinged doors, used 'Coach' in the vehicle's formal descriptive name [for example in the Metropolitan Railway diagram book]. 'Coach' was also used in describing Bogie Stock vehicles operating in various electric formations, and for the single Motor Coaches 46 and 69. Steam stock compartment passenger vehicles also used 'Coach'. 'Car' was used for the Metropolitan's [and H&C's] Saloon Stock 'occasionally Car Stock] vehicles, also for the two Met-Vickers-equipped Saloon Motors 198 and 199 of 1926, and for the Metropolitan Railway's own 'S' Stock train of 1919, the vehicles of which had hinged passenger doors and a form of saloon interior. For operational and scheduling descriptions of trains, '7-car' or '6-coach' would be typical terminology. For the several Metropolitan trains that mixed and matched compartments and saloons, '8-vehicle' would be the terminology used.
The Pullmans were 'car', and their one 'Saloon' was just that.
Just to be complete, the word 'carriage' crops up a little more in the Metropolitan's older engineering documents and drawing titles, mostly in connection with Bogie Stock and rigid 8-wheel stock, and for generic design details such as door locks and heaters,
I'm always a bit wary when terminology comes up for discussion, especially when it's used from outside, looking in, as it can be an emotive subject and have far-reaching consequences if the usage goes wrong and then viral. Will have a go for the Metropolitan Railway specifically, as I'd prefer the search engines to come up with what I aim to be sound and traceable answers ...
The EMU stock from the late 1920s and 1930s, with compartment hinged doors, used 'Coach' in the vehicle's formal descriptive name [for example in the Metropolitan Railway diagram book]. 'Coach' was also used in describing Bogie Stock vehicles operating in various electric formations, and for the single Motor Coaches 46 and 69. Steam stock compartment passenger vehicles also used 'Coach'. 'Car' was used for the Metropolitan's [and H&C's] Saloon Stock 'occasionally Car Stock] vehicles, also for the two Met-Vickers-equipped Saloon Motors 198 and 199 of 1926, and for the Metropolitan Railway's own 'S' Stock train of 1919, the vehicles of which had hinged passenger doors and a form of saloon interior. For operational and scheduling descriptions of trains, '7-car' or '6-coach' would be typical terminology. For the several Metropolitan trains that mixed and matched compartments and saloons, '8-vehicle' would be the terminology used.
The Pullmans were 'car', and their one 'Saloon' was just that.
Just to be complete, the word 'carriage' crops up a little more in the Metropolitan's older engineering documents and drawing titles, mostly in connection with Bogie Stock and rigid 8-wheel stock, and for generic design details such as door locks and heaters,
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
That appears rather more manageable, but there's still four tracks of the Met/Bakerloo, plus the ex-GCR lines. The North London looks manageable though.
That's an interesting perspective on "the vale containing the Kilburn/Brondesbury area, with the views towards the heights of Hampstead and south towards Kensington and Chelsea.". Coming from Stanmore I never really saw outside the immediate environment which was, to be honest, a bit grimy. Then there was that enormous advertising hoarding between the LT lines and the ex-GCR which prevented one from seeing anything on the main line.
I'd love to see anything Met/GCR/LMR but I suspect it'll need something of "Rule #1" to be applied.
Brian
That's an interesting perspective on "the vale containing the Kilburn/Brondesbury area, with the views towards the heights of Hampstead and south towards Kensington and Chelsea.". Coming from Stanmore I never really saw outside the immediate environment which was, to be honest, a bit grimy. Then there was that enormous advertising hoarding between the LT lines and the ex-GCR which prevented one from seeing anything on the main line.
I'd love to see anything Met/GCR/LMR but I suspect it'll need something of "Rule #1" to be applied.
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks, Engineer. My question about "car" or "carriage" was, if not flippant asking about what we should call such vehicles for accuracy if nothing else. Thank you for taking the question so seriously. I guess we already know generically what we mean and that's usually good enough but the etymology will doubtless be of interest.
Today we have another half dozen. Details as known are attached to each photo.
67782. Passing West Hampstead. 12 May 1956.
67797 from Chorleywood to London in ER Days
Baker St. 18 September 1960. Left to Right. 6.30pm to Amersham T Class Stock 1932 (GEC). LHCETS Special F Class Stock.
Battersea Exhibition. 8 October 1960. E5022 - E3056.
Battersea Exhibition. 8 October 1960. E61416-SC61838.
Battersea Exhibition. 8 October 1960. Layout Top to Bottom. E3008, 3050, 3028, 3008, SC61838, E61416.
Brian
Today we have another half dozen. Details as known are attached to each photo.
67782. Passing West Hampstead. 12 May 1956.
67797 from Chorleywood to London in ER Days
Baker St. 18 September 1960. Left to Right. 6.30pm to Amersham T Class Stock 1932 (GEC). LHCETS Special F Class Stock.
Battersea Exhibition. 8 October 1960. E5022 - E3056.
Battersea Exhibition. 8 October 1960. E61416-SC61838.
Battersea Exhibition. 8 October 1960. Layout Top to Bottom. E3008, 3050, 3028, 3008, SC61838, E61416.
Brian
All points conceded. My pictures in my mind are formed mostly from the perspective of the relatively high cushions of Metropolitan trains, looking over and beyond bridge and viaduct parapets, and travelling fairly fast. I look out for the distant views across London when I can, all with the backing sounds of trains of several generations. From the front there is less scope for lateral viewing of course, but the sense of theatre is even more apparent, either flying through the bridge arches then steeply round and down towards West Hampstead or climbing up to Kilburn and out of the inner territories, clear signals permitting in both cases.