Big Train James's US Outline Workbench - sw1500 Kitbash

Big Train James

Western Thunderer
Mick and Steph, thank you for the imput on the etching. I want to use whichever material allows me to make the "wire" members of the grills as fine as possible. They are drawn at a scale 1/4" and still look too heavy for my tastes. I'm thinking that stainless steel will be the choice here. I'm always amazed that anyone would switch from HO to O, even having done it myself, when I look at models offered by the HO manufacturers and they blow away O offerings in detail and reach despite being not quite half the size. The Athearn sw1500 is a great example of this.

Anyhoo, I used full thickness tabs as I thought I had read on the PPD site that they were recommended for thinner materials. Steph's post would seem to corroborate this, but as I'm seeing a difference of opinion I wouldn't mind clarification.

Regarding the eyelets for mounting, I had drawn in a half etch groove to facilitate the bend. If this is still not sufficient, I can remove them, extend the wires they are at the ends of, and then extend those wires through the shell. Which brings up the question of whether I need to do a half etch in each of the wires to get them all to bend. Or is it not necessary for material this thin or model elements this narrow. Another thing I need confirmation on with the eyelets is for the grill on the top of the hood. They are at the end of every wire on that top grill. Should I still execute them as a separate part?

I will plan on combining both the front and top grills on the same photo etch. I will need at least five sets but I'm willing to share more if my works satisfies your expectations. I also will try to fill in with any other parts I can think of to make the cost as efficient as possible. I'm sure we can work something out to maximize the value. Come to think of it I will need etching for the shutter vanes behind the grill. And then potentially I will need to work up a fan blade. I don't even know if that would be easy to achieve with an etch piece. Currently my plan is to use a 48" fan from Atlas that would normally populate either the radiator or dynamic brake fans on traditional locomotives. My only concern is that the individual fan blades seem to be a bit narrow to match the prototype. I will have to decide if I want to be that picky for something that will be behind at least two other layers visually.

Mick, I like the word flange in place of my "surround". I wasn't happy with the description last night but couldn't jostle my brain around enough to pop out the right term. I also considered etching this part, but for now I'm going to be content to file down the thickness of it and leave it in plastic. Unless I damage it, in which case I will use the etch.

I agree on the overhang lip. On the radiator flange -:thumbs:- I could use a heavy duty aggressive file and go at it with some zeal. The lip will require more care. But boy why is that plastic so thick?:eek::headbang: And you're right, I don't want to lose the flag clip detail. The roof on the cab makes sense to remove and replace as it's essentially blank. Not so at the nose. I'll most likely put the time in to file it down. It will bother me incessantly otherwise, keeping me up nights.:(

I have seen the square sand boxes on some locos, but I don't think I've ever seen the angled version on that BNSF engine. It doesn't surprise me at all that you've seen lots of variety on the UP locos. They've been inherited seemingly from half the railroads in the US as UP has assimilated them.

Not sure how much time I will find this weekend to continue work. Saturday is definitely busy already. And in general, my girl gets most of my time on the weekends. She doesn't begrudge me my train fixation at all. But I do try to be fair.:oops: But it's hard to stop when you've got some momentum going finally. I'll post what I can.

Jim
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Jim,

Regarding tabs, I've only ever worked as thin as 0.010" Nickle Silver on the GP38 cab and used half etch tabs through out, especially where they joined with areas that were already half etched.

I did some artwork that pushed the limits of what PPD could do and was well below their specifications for bar width, having said that the items were not a bar as such but details half etched so that might make a difference, they did ring and question the parts but I said they were a test and sacrificial if they failed, I made duplicate parts with much larger tread grip lozenges.

If PPD say full etch then that's what I'd do to be on the safe side, I hadn't read that bit in the blurb so stand corrected.

EMD spartan cab battery box doors, virtually all half etch so half etch tabs to hold in place.
Image2.jpg

Close up of the battery box cover with lozenge treads.
Image4.jpg

Even closer showing lozenge dimensions
Image6.jpg

Each grid square is 0.05 x 0.05 mm (0.002" x 0.002"). The knuckle buster latch pull is 0.2mm (0.008") wide and half etched, all of this on 0.010" material.

Not quite sure how you would best tackle the radiator top grill, I'd probably go with 0.010" stainless steel and half etch it all except the bolts holding the grill in place and use an adhesive to fix it in place.
 

Big Train James

Western Thunderer
Mick, I thought you mentioned on your thread the thought that the wire for the grills was 6mm diameter, which is just under 1/4". I used 1/4" for my initial etch drawing, and it looks a bit to heavy . Do you still think that diameter is accurate? I can get much finer if I use stainless steel for the material.

Jim
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
I think an etched grill will look to flat and not fine enough to really capture the appearance of weld mesh. Why not solder the grills together from fine copper, or other wire. I have done it in HO scale (see post 19 of my Overseers Oddments thread) to represent a larger mesh size, so fairly similar size to what you need. I used fine copper wire stripped from electrical flex cord and set up a simple jig consisting of a block of wood and some nails. You need to be careful with not too much heat as the copper wire does expand. My first trial failed but the other four were good enough to use.

Edit: Jim, just saw your query re wire size in the weld mesh - it looks like it might be 4mm wire which is a common size in 50x100 (2x4 inch) mesh. Paint will add a millimetre or so.
 
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mickoo

Western Thunderer
Mick, I thought you mentioned on your thread the thought that the wire for the grills was 6mm diameter, which is just under 1/4". I used 1/4" for my initial etch drawing, and it looks a bit to heavy . Do you still think that diameter is accurate? I can get much finer if I use stainless steel for the material.

Jim
Jim, I did? just checked can't see that but take your word for it. I did say I'd used 0.5mm wire as a pivot for vanes on the class 40.

It's very hard to get a good grasp of how thick the grill bar is, here's a close up from the site you tipped previously

39918536.Scan549.JPG
Copyright with owner, shown for indication purposes.

This is the bonnet top grill but it'd be reasonably safe to assume it's the same material, 6 mm might be a bit thick but I really don't think it'll be much smaller than 4 mm to retain any form of strength. If you knew what size those flange head bolts were it'd help.

The radiator core flange bolts would have me reaching for a 13mm spanner if I were working on them which gives a bolt diameter of 8 mm.

However, we do know the red stripe is 3" wide so if we scale off (risky I know) the stripe where that plate joint around the sand box is, I have 20 mm on my screen and about 1.5 mm for the bar in the same place, which roughly comes to 5.5 mm. I'll play with the image some more in a image editor and get a more accurate measurement tomorrow, it's late now.
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
That's an interesting shot, seeing that detail I'd go multi-depth in stainless steel...

And it'd definitely be finished as an SP loco. It still amazes me there's no decent SW1500, GP40 or SD40-2 in 0. If there were I'd probably be doing US-outline already.

Steph
 

Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
And it'd definitely be finished as an SP loco. It still amazes me there's no decent SW1500, GP40 or SD40-2 in 0. If there were I'd probably be doing US-outline already.

Steph
....or decent GP38-2.... Jim we don't "do" w*shl*sts on W.T. but if you do start a line of O scale stuff some of us can provide quite extensive lists. ;)
Not all locos either.... modern Trinity Reefer (like the BLMA HO one) for starters... *oops* :oops: :shit: :D

... all 2-Rail scale, of course....
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
....or decent GP38-2.....

I'm going as fast as I can :eek: the first Spartan cab run was ok but it needs work to make it easier to construct and stronger....it is on the list to do after the W1 frames. Following that are the high nose cabs and Canada cabs.

Image2.jpg

It currently follows the Spartan cab construction method so will need revising due to recent experiences and skill learning, it's not currently finished or had a trial print but already there are areas where it can be improved.

Once those are done it'll be the frames, pilots, tanks for the GP38-2 range and SD40-2 range.

Back to the grills, I hadn't thought of half front and half rear etching to give it some 3D depth. I wonder if it's because it's a bar section which in real life has a highlight and shadow which tricks our eye into thinking it's actually smaller than it is, or would appear if it were flat bar of the same thickness?
 

Big Train James

Western Thunderer
Brian, I don't know how I missed this over the weekend. I didn't realize Gilmaur made the sw1500. I have had an eye on their Alco switcher. Do you have any other pictures of the layout?

I plan on modeling one with the SP light package and number boards. Where did you source the flexicoil trucks?

Jim
 

Big Train James

Western Thunderer
I think an etched grill will look to flat and not fine enough to really capture the appearance of weld mesh. Why not solder the grills together from fine copper, or other wire.
This was going to be my solution if I couldn't find a suitable mesh already available. There is a company called Plano Models here that does etch products including some wire mesh for HO covered hopper roof walks that often gets re-purposed for the grills on these switchers in HO. However, they don't do O scale and the HO mesh is too fine for my model. I may experiement with a fabricated wire grill if the etched version doesn't yield acceptable results. I have gone so far as to sketch up a jig for bending and holding the wires during soldering.

Edit: Jim, just saw your query re wire size in the weld mesh - it looks like it might be 4mm wire which is a common size in 50x100 (2x4 inch) mesh. Paint will add a millimetre or so.
I missed this previously. I could swear that Mick mentioned 6mm wire somewhere, but I haven't found that reference again. It does look a bit too wide. I will redraw my etch with the 4mm equivalent and see if that gives the openings the correct feel.

Thanks for the tip on the wire fabrication, and the imput on the wire size. Both items are duly noted.
Jim
 

Big Train James

Western Thunderer
...It still amazes me there's no decent SW1500, GP40 or SD40-2 in 0. If there were I'd probably be doing US-outline already.

Steph
I have to agree with this except to substitute the gp38-2 for the gp40. There are roughly as many gp38-2's produced as gp40's and 40-2's combined. For a lot of railroads, six axle road power was more common than four axle units. Most in the market for the higher horsepower went with the sd40-2 rather than the gp40-2.

The absence of these locos in O scale has everything to do with other models already in the market, and also the ability to leverage r&d for one scale into equivalent models in other scales. MTH and Lionel both already make sd40-2's in O, albeit toy train models. Athearn and Kato are the defacto standards for the same model in HO. Atlas is the only RTR producer in O scale that can be counted on to make "serious" accurate models. They will not however go head to head with any of the aforementioned manufacturers if they can't be first to market.

I firmly believe that Atlas did the mp15dc in O, HO, and N scales all as a result of Athearn having a decent sw1500 in their lineup for years. The sw1500 is far more common than any of the mp15 variants. But in order to use the same research and cad models for all scales, Atlas would have had to compete against the Athearn model or switch prototypes. They blinked and switched.

When I start my O scale model train manufacturing business, the sw1500, gp38-2, and sd40-2 will be the first three locos I produce, with the sd40-2 being first. A quality version would be the closest to a sure thing as will ever be found in the model train world (US outline edition of course).

I really must pay closer attention. I've discovered tonight that I've missed several posts on several threads.
Jim
 

Big Train James

Western Thunderer
....or decent GP38-2.... Jim we don't "do" w*shl*sts on W.T. but if you do start a line of O scale stuff some of us can provide quite extensive lists. ;)
Not all locos either.... modern Trinity Reefer (like the BLMA HO one) for starters... *oops* :oops: :shit: :D

... all 2-Rail scale, of course....
Agreed on all counts.

My "problem" is that I really quite like a lot of modern rolling stock from say the mid 90's onward. But I like older motive power. Also, I find railroading today to be a bit too homogeneous for my tastes. There are only 7 major railroads left in the US, and most everything is painted grey or oxide red. Not much personality left these days.

Jim
 

Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
Well to mix Old Power/New Stock, you have to go Regional or Short Line, freelance if needs be ;) with just the odd Class One loco as the feeder to your Railroad. That's my take anyway and it works for me!! :)
 

Big Train James

Western Thunderer
These showed up on my doorstep the other day. They are the finest tread available, although still 5'-0" gauge rather than p48. Found on ebay at a discount. I'll give them a go and try for more if they work out. I think the .145 tread size is the more common middle ground size. But as I plan on handlaying my track, or at least my turnouts, I should be able to control all the picky tolerances.nwsl-sw1500wheels.jpg
Edit: ummmmm, oopsies...:oops:...says right on the package "p48"...well then this will add an interesting wrinkle to things. I guess I've no choice now but to do everything p48?:confused:
 

Big Train James

Western Thunderer
Progress has been slow on the model. A few too many distractions, and a lot of head scratching and rumination prior to putting knife or glue to model. I'm trying to be patient about things as I figure out how to do them, rather than rushing ahead and ruining things.

At any rate, here are several pictures of slow, methodical, earnest progress.

Here is a picture of the front end. Not much new here except that I have plugged the holes where the mounting tabs for the etched grill passed through the shell. I will need to pack a bit of filler around the new styrene to fill in those tiny gaps. One of the best things about photographing your work is that you can see all your failings!:oops:
rad-plug-001.jpg
Now for the same sort of treatment on the top radiator section. Starting with the original insert. Just a wee bit of cutting and filing to clean out the poorly rendered representation of the radiator cores.
rad-plug-005.jpg
rad-plug-002.jpg
rad-plug-003.jpg
rad-plug-004.jpg
Hmmm, the photos are a bit washed out when I photo light grey or white objects. I'll need to adjust some settings for the next round of photos. In addition to the plugs all around, I've add a filler piece between the two outside edges of the casting. Not only will it support the addition of new boxy radiator cores, but it also acts to spread the two sides apart somewhat. After I had removed all the existing filler, the plastic deflected inward somewhat, enough so that the clips don't engage the shell any longer. I've also added some .015" styrene along each side of the longitudinal center support to give it a bit more width to attach new etched grills to :thumbs:.

I need to fabricate new radiator cores for each side. I'm at a bit of loss here as prototype photos indicate approximately 27 variations :eek:. That number isn't exact and may be somewhat of an exaggeration :oops:.Obviously it is a modular design and can be outshopped with any number of combinations of new and original parts, in any number of orientations. I haven't yet been able to get an answer as to when and how the cores were specified, so I will need to just pick one prototype engine to start with and copy what is there.

In the meantime I've turned my attention to the shutters and fan behind my new etched grills. I'm working up some etch for the shutters and have created a 3d model for the fan blade that is currently at the printer. I should expect the fan early next week.
sw1500-radfan.jpg
I will need to fabricate a shroud for the fan that fits up inside the shell behind the shutters. It should be pretty straightforward, about 6 scale inches thick with a 54" diameter hole in it. I will then back the shroud with a panel to block the view into the innards. It will also serve to mount the fan, having a .125" diameter post to fit a corresponding hole in the back of the fan.

I'm currently reworking my first etch drawing for the front grill so that all verticals are half-etched from the back, while all horizontals are half-etched from the front. This will give the etch some additional depth as well as better represent the prototype. I will use the same principles to create the etch for the topside grill. I have in the meantime figured out that the mesh spacing is not the same for the front and top grills. The front is 2" x 4", while the top grill is 2" x 6". See? All this plodding will pay dividends. Always better to get it right the first time when paying overseas postage from PPD :thumbs:.

And oh yes, I've also found some more details to create in etch along the way. The steps will need to be redone now that I've given them any thought. I keep finding more things to fix if I want to do it right, which I do. But that's ok, it's not a race.

Jim
 

Big Train James

Western Thunderer
I've also reached the conclusion that when I do this the next time, I will just scrape off or toss a lot of the existing details and build new from styrene or etch. It couldn't possibly be any more effort than trying to cut and file things cleanly without damaging them.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Keep at it ;) before you know it, it'll all be done and painted :thumbs:

The printed fan looks nice, of course I'm now having to have to do that to mine :rolleyes: :cool:
 
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