Big Train James's US Outline Workbench - sw1500 Kitbash

[Big Train James]

The last several areas to address at the moment are the radiator fan/front hood, the hood sides from the first door forward, and the sloped roof transition directly in front of the cab.

I've decided that I will simply cut off the entire front of the hood, and replace it with a 3d printed part, or resin casting based on a printed master. This will address both the fan opening and also the SP light details, as well as allow for thinning the edge of the overhang over the lights. Pictures also indicate the sides of the hood as well, including sand filler hatches. I originally was going to print these parts as well as the front. The reasoning was that I could avoid mismatches in adjacent surfaces between existing and new if I cut back to a logical seam like the edge of the first door. I've since decided against printing the hood sides, as the print is somewhat prone to warping, and frankly it's expensive without much value. I also acknowledge that I need to do more regular modeling (as opposed to 3d cad) instead of falling into the trap of always thinking 3d cad is the solution. To that end, I will print out improved sand filler hatches. I will laminate some .005" styrene sheet to the existing shell to adjust the sheet metal. I will replace the whole front end as before.



The radiator fan has been discussed here before. The design has been revised a bit to account for attaching an etched metal grille. As it currently stands, there is a .005" gap between the circular fan shroud and the outer walls of the fan hood opening. It's not readily apparent in these photos. But I've tested the arrangement with .005" styrene and it appears to function as intended.

The hood transition in front of the cab is a simple affair compared to everything else. I needed to shorten the sloped section as the prototype sw1500 is shorter in this area than the comparable mp15dc that I started with. Not much to this part - cut out the old, print the new, including some flanges to position the new part in the shell.



Here are a couple of shots of the whole contraption cobbled together. These parts will replace most of the front end of the Atlas shell, except as noted above. The nice thing is that the radiator core section will fit in an unmodified Atlas shell, if one doesn't want to go for the whole nose replacement. Missing at the moment are the shutters. I've decided along the way that they aren't robust enough to survive printing, and will be better suited to some other fabrication method. Also missing are the grilles. As usual the completion of development of etch artwork eludes me, at least this first time. I've got some work on the grilles done, but radiator core grille will need to be revised before moving forward.



All for now. I'm hoping to get back onto this model in earnest, so I can move onto some other distracting project without violating any self-imposed rules about finishing Project A before starting Project B.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I like the SP prototype - will it be speed, standard or red lettered decals? SSW would look nice .

I see you've used Plano HO boxcar roof walkway. ABER in Poland produce etched mesh and it's in their catalogue under Modelling Materials > Nets and Plates. [URL="http://www.aber.net.pl/catalog.html"]Aber[/URL] . They are available in square, rectangular and diamond patterns. Their US distributor according to their website is Pacific Coast Models, Santa Rosa, Ca. The other North American distributor is in Canada; Airconnection, 4 - 2624 Royal Windsor Dr, Mississuaga, Ontario, L5J 1K7.

I have the ABER 0.5 x 0.5 square mesh to look at using for the corrugated radiator and door grilles for the Dash 8.

I'm hoping to get back onto this model in earnest, so I can move onto some other distracting project without violating any self-imposed rules about finishing Project A before starting Project B.

Ha ha. In my case this rule was ignored as I now have projects A, B, C.... etc on the go now all at various stages of construction.

 

[Big Train James]

Dave,
I would have to think that it will end up in either traditional white or possibly even in UP paint. I'm not a fan of the red lettering. I don't mind the speed lettering but I would have to check lettering style versus lights versus era. I do seem to recall that most switchers kept their original lettering? And that the speed lettering wasn't that common? I feel like the units I saw in the yard in Denver in the late 90's and 00's wore standard white lettering still, or at least the part of it that hadn't peeled of over the years. I have to say that in my opinion, speed lettering belongs on Rio Grande units only. The speed lettered SP units are poseurs as far as I'm concerned.

I've looked at the ABER mesh in the past, at your recommendation. At the time I was hoping to find something suitable to use for the front and top grilles. No luck at the time. I will take another look with this other use in mind. The Plano walkway is HO material. They offer a piece of sheet material with the same pattern, 8" x 2" I think, for scratchbuilding. Their N scale walkways have smaller openings, but they aren't offered in the sheet material. So I will need to find something else. It was handy to have for the test fit, to make sure the dado/groove for the mesh as well as the tab and slot for the end cover both functioned properly. It also clearly demonstrates in my opinion that the mesh isn't nearly dense enough for what I want to achieve with it.

As far as all that Project A, B, and C stuff......the big difference is you actually get stuff done. I can start projects with the best of them, I'm world class in that regard. It's the finishing that is my failing. What's ironic I suppose is that I'm intimidated by real modeling like putting knife to model, because it's all relatively new to me still and I am still feeling my way around. But when I've actually done it, I've made good progress and found it to be perhaps easier than I anticipated. Conversely, I'm pretty adept and comfortable with 3d cad, and relatively quick with it, yet I dump hour upon hour into it taking things to the Nth degree. I'm not saying it's difficult, only that the clicks do take time. And there are a lot of clicks to get to the point I'm at with something like the bogie frames.

Jim

 

[Steph Dale]

Jim,

There's a lot there I really like; the trucks are superb and I'd certainly be in the market for a set were they to become available. Actually, as you mentioned the possibility of doing them as a stand-alone item independent of the Atlas guts, I'm now wondering whether I've enough info to do a GMD1...

I see that you're finding the 3DP to be as revolutionary and beguiling as I am; thankfully the technology keeps improving and material strengths and resolutions are increasing all the time, which can only help us model-makers.

All the best,

Steph

 

[Big Train James]

Steph,
There's no doubt that the sideframes could be applied to another gearbox or drive style. There would be some work to add the bolster parts back in if so desired, and the ultimate issue would be amending the parts for mounting. But at this point it's only a matter of going back to the prime 3d model and cutting and moving existing parts about.

Once I get a casting in hand, ideally in the next month or two, and feel 100% confident that the frames will work as intended, I'll be happy to get something figured out with you.

Regarding the gmd-1, Jason Shron from Rapido was just over your way fiddling about with bus models. You should have cornered him and asked about for help with an O scale version.

As to 3d printing, my biggest issue at this point is finding somebody to print my models to a suitable quality for casting. In my opinion, Shapeways is not that somebody. What I need is somebody with a high res wax printer, something like an Envisiontec Perfactory or a Solidscape unit. That usually means custom jewelers, which are a dime a dozen. But the printing houses that they use often won't work with outsiders or non-jewelers such as myself, or they won't cast brass. I've got leads I'm pursuing, but it's been a bit frustrating at times. I'm also worried about printing a fragile wax and then shipping it elsewhere to cast, as it doesn't seem to take much to damage the masters. I'll sort it out eventually.

Jim

 

[Robin Talukdar]

I would definitely purchase a set (or two) of the trucks for my models of ex-CP SW1200RS. I already have the narrow gearbox cover from Jay, but have been searching for a decent truck sideframe to replace the unsatisfactory Atlas rendition. Lovely work you’ve been doing, very inspiring! I really like the creative use of 3D modeling to get what you need. Keep up the modern modeling!

Robin Talukdar
P48guelphspur.wordpress.com

 

[Steph Dale]

I would definitely purchase a set (or two) of the trucks for my models of ex-CP SW1200RS...

Robin,
Welcome to the forum, but you can't leave that just hanging there! Pictures please; they're the only acceptable currency on this forum.

Steph

 

[Robin Talukdar]

Hi Steph,

Nothing to show on the SW1200RS yet, I’m afraid. I picked up a 3R Atlas 1200RS in CV paint that needs stripping. I have the P48 wheelsets needed and besides the truck sideframes am contemplating on how to make a better (thinner-walled) cab - perhaps with my wife’s Cricut? - and the light extension on the long good end - probably 3D.

Currently on my workbench I’m getting a Red Caboose into P48 running shape with the addition of underframe members, Finescale360 frame and gear towers, and Maxon coreless motor (thanks Pete M!).

I try to post to my blog whenever anything interesting happens, but appreciate the high-quality modeling on this forum. Inspirational!

Robin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Currently on my workbench I’m getting a Red Caboose into P48 running shape with the addition of underframe members, Finescale360 frame and gear towers, and Maxon coreless motor (thanks Pete M!).

Hi Robin and welcome. I've converted one (with sound and working cut levers naturally) to P48 utilising the existing drives..... and another is on it's way. My P48 stuff is on this forum here .

 

[Steph Dale]

Robin,
I agree with you about the SW1200 cab - it's awful. But it's not right for an SW1200RS anyway, is it? I'm trying to work it out for one of my Atlas SW900s; my plan is to convert one into a CN SWeep.

Mind you, the Atlas GP/SD35 cab is pretty poor, as is the one on the Weaver GP38-2, so I guess I may well end up drawing up a sheet for etching to cover them all.

Steph

 

[Robin Talukdar]

I have a Weaver GP38 waiting in the wings to become an LLPX leaser as used on the GEXR, so if you come up with a better cab . . .

With respect to the SW1200RS cab, you may be thinking of the CN units which have the unique headlight/numberboard cluster on both cab and long hood, whereas CP’s RS units only had it on the long hood. Hoping that makes a convincing model easier.

Robin

 

[Big Train James]

Hi Robin,
Glad to see you over here. We chatted briefly on Facebook about the cab possibilities for your gp15-1 project. You'll find (or already have found) that there is plenty of interest here for US/Canadian outline modeling, plus everywhere else. There's also a lot of great modeling and a lot of great support (meaning tips, techniques, and constructive criticism) for projects here, and most often the advice and information transcends eras, locales, and scales.

I'm currently waiting for some suggestions from the caster for sprue locations on the sideframe parts. Once I have added any necessary sprues, I'll be sending files around for quotes for waxes. Hopefully something will come to pass soon. Once I get a hard copy of the sideframes in hand and tested, I'll feel comfortable with getting additional sets to others that want them.

Two things to keep in mind. As it stands, I'm planning on casting directly from fresh waxes, as opposed to shooting additional waxes in molds. And I don't expect the cost of printing waxes to be particularly inexpensive, almost certainly more than the cost of the castings themselves. If there somehow ends up being crazy interest in the frame (I'm not seeing that happening, but who knows), then I may have to reconsider how the masters are created.

The other thing is that unfortunately the gear cover that Jay sells now will not work with these sideframes. It is essentially the same, however I've moved the mounting tabs slightly. Since I was going to cast a new part, I also went ahead and added some mass to the bottom of the cover to represent the bottom of the prototype bolster. The position of the tab on the stock Atlas cover is designed for the AAR type A sideframe, and is unsuitable in my opinion for the level of accuracy I'm seeking on my sideframes. The old Atlas tabs don't even work well for the Atlas Flexicoils, they're one of the things that force compromise in those frames. The other thing is that with both the front and back slack adjuster bars included on the casting, the sideframes have to attach to the gearbox differently then they do otherwise. They need to start below the tabs, and move up around the wheels, whereas the existing Atlas arrangement does it the other way around.

My best hope at the moment is to find a printing house that might offer a discount for batch printing, and in turn that there would be enough interest to make such an arrangement feasible. As soon as I get things sorted, I'll let everybody know about it.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[Big Train James]

Robin,
I agree with you about the SW1200 cab - it's awful. But it's not right for an SW1200RS anyway, is it? I'm trying to work it out for one of my Atlas SW900s; my plan is to convert one into a CN SWeep.

Mind you, the Atlas GP/SD35 cab is pretty poor, as is the one on the Weaver GP38-2, so I guess I may well end up drawing up a sheet for etching to cover them all.

Steph

Steph,
What we need are Cannon and Co. thin wall style kits for replacement cabs in O scale. Really we need the whole Cannon lineup. I talked to Dave Hussey once about it as I fancied the idea of creating something similar in O. He doesn't have any interest. But he didn't laugh in my face either.

It seems to me that possibly the Weaver gp38-2 doesn't even feature a dash 2 cab, or sub-base? I haven't looked in a while but I think that might be the case? Along those lines, the Atlas gp35/sd35 cabs aren't dash 2 style either. I've got the later cabs and sub-base parts on hand for some of my intended kitbashes that came from the gp15-1 or the gp60. Also an assortment of noses from including both 81" and 88" lengths, plus the 81" high version.

Most of the issues I see with the Atlas cabs are in the windows. I'm thinking about milling the window areas down in thickness, and somehow re-detailing the gaskets and other details. One thing I've already discovered on this switcher project is that I probably should have just started from scratch with the frame. The same is probably true for the cab, but I'll at least give it a shot with what I have on hand.

Jim

 

[Steph Dale]

Steph,
What we need are Cannon and Co. thin wall style kits for replacement cabs in O scale. Really we need the whole Cannon lineup.

Jim,

I agree with that wholeheartedly - the specialist suppliers on your side of the pond seem to have found ways of producing high quality low-cost injection mouldings which remains just too expensive in the UK; largely the effect of the smaller market I guess. We do have good alternative technologies over here, so can produce etching, casting and things related to rapid prototyping well and relatively affordably.

The 2-rail 'scale' market for 1/48 however seems to be very small, even compared to the UK. But the quality/price of r-t-r and components seems comparable (e.g. US outline Atlas vs UK outline Heljan). I can understand Dave Hussey, and others associated with H0-scale detail parts, not feeling the commercial drivers to move to 1:48.

The other problem is that many of the upgrade components that are available are not as good as they should be and in many cases it's the basics; trucks, cabs, fans and drives. Most I guess are based upon old tooling and even the good amongst that (e.g. CLW, Kemtron, etc) doesn't seem to be available any more. I'd very much welcome getting hold of some of the CLW kits.

In many ways it's easier for me to do my research and develop the parts myself for what I need, as you have done for your SW1500.

Steph

 

[mickoo]

One of the first etches I ever did was the EMD standard cab, the idea being a drop in replacement for Atlas or Weaver, whom ever. The first etch only had the standard low nose, MkII etch had a tall hook nose added. It was ok but experience over the last few years has shown it was no more than a half decent test shot.

The whole concept needs reworking from the construction aspect to give a solid base but thin window frames......my pet hate is thick plastic frames.....as well as options for L shaped drivers screens and subsequent conversions back to your screen set up.....they're still subtly different to stock windows.

The main problem I'm now having is that the cab (just from the test shot) is so much better than stock that the rest of the engine really needs to follow suite and that's one slippery slope.

One area I'm wrestling with whilst on vacation.......Sorry overseas deployment....
..is making the cab area strong enough to support between the engine and nose areas, but remain hollow enough to insert a fully detailed and lit cab, important as I want the cab doors open on my model.

I did also flesh out, but never produced, the Canada cab with four piece windscreen for the SD40-2, like the standard cab it needs reworking from the base up.

Robin, like others, welcome and photos please

 

[Big Train James]

Steph,
I think part of the viability for companines like Cannon, Tichy, Grandt Line, and PSC is that the tooling is usually cut by someone in house. Gordon Cannon was a machinist, and cut his own tooling. Tichy does the same thing. I think they all do. And they also all run their own injection mold machines. It's got to play a major roll in keeping costs down. I also believe that many of these molds are made from cheaper materials than traditional tool steel. I know that the Cannon molds are cut from brass. A lot of short run modern tooling is cut from Aluminum. It works because nobody is trying to get 100k shots from a mold in the environment we are discussing.

It's true that the 2-rail market here is a niche within a niche scale. P48 is an even smaller group, although I think both gauges in 2-rail are seeing growing participation. The adage here is that 3-rail drives product development, with 2-rail a compromised also ran. For now it would seem to be true, although I will say that Sunset/3rd Rail often has more 2-rail reservations for locos than 3-rail, so it's not an absolute. I think anybody considering getting into the parts/drives/whatever business has to be realistic about the possibilities. And plan on traveling a lot to promote the line, especially to people that aren't even necessarily in O scale at all yet. The reality is that Dave Hussey owns Cannon now because Gordon Cannon was a good friend of his and Dave wanted to carry on the line and Gordon's legacy. But even he would admit that the HO market has contracted somewhat as the quality of RTR HO models has improved so significantly. O scale isn't really worth the effort although I think that Gordon Cannon's legacy would be well supported in O, S, and the bigger scales as it's relevance to HO fades.

My discussion with Dave was very loosely framed. My goal in forging a relationship with Cannon, or Scaletrains, or Tangent, or Exactrail (I talked to all of them), was to benefit from a lot of accumulated knowledge and information, and hopefully share development costs going forward or offer monetization of existing product development by leveraging it for larger scales. I recognize that it will be tough to support a business initiative from scratch in O scale, without doing something to limit costs. Everybody listened to me, nobody laughed me out of their booth or called security, but nobody would really sign on either. So the idea has retreated to the back burner for now.

Finney7 has a fantastic advantage in having the skills and resources and resolve of multiple principals at hand. Mostly, I have an idea, but not much experience to back it up. For now I will continue to make things that I want or need, and worry about the rest some other time.

Jim

 

[Big Train James]

I've been focusing here mostly on the guts for this project for the past week or so. I've never done a dcc install of any kind, nor any sound or lights. So there's been quite a bit of head scratching and research going on as I sort through things. I'm currently waiting for an assortment of wire, led's, and miscellaneous hardware to move forward, but I've got a pretty good idea where things are headed.

My goals are:
A. Fit everything in - more challenging than anticipated, the decoder motherboard takes a lot of space - ultimately should work though
B. Super clean install - that OCD thing
C. Access through the exhaust manifold hatch for plug connection of body and cab mounted lights
D. Screw, pin, or plug connection for bogie leads - this is negotiable
E. Containment of wiring in areas with moving parts
F. Get a Tang Band 1931 module to fit - pro = very good bass response, con = takes up a lot of room
G. Lighting to include front and rear headlights, numberboards over the cab, and ground lights under the cab - ditchlights pending era choice
G. Not ruin everything in the process
H. Late to the party, but may try to add a keep alive if space allows

I think that's more or less it. On to the pictures and commentary. There's no actual wiring yet but I got excited about an update .

The first step is to modify both the shell and the speaker enclosure. The 1931 module out of the box is too wide to fit inside the shell, laying flat. The solution was to narrow the speaker enclosure and enlarge the space in the shell, by removing material from both. The speaker started at about 1.42" wide, with the shell measuring about 1.375". The shell wall thickness is about .080-.085", so there's plenty of material available to remove. There is one issue, which is the recess for the handbrake on the left side of the shell. The recess protrudes into the shell interior, so I had to remove all of the shell material from only the right side.

The speaker was trickier, as I had no idea exactly how thick the wall of the enclosure was. I could remove material from both sides, and measure overall width of the module, but I couldn't tell how much I had removed from each wall. Unless of course I went all the way through . This task would be an ideal situation for a mill. I don't have one (yet) so I used a dremel with cutting tool.

Handbrake recess


Right side of shell with material removed - not pretty, but it will suffice for now


Speaker with end mounting tabs removed and material removed from the sides - the "notch" in the side is to fit around the handbrake recess



The speaker enclosure ended up at just under 1.40" on average. The shell averages just over 1.40". It's snug, but I can fit the speaker in without forcing the sides of the shell outward.

In the midst of all this, I posted some questions on the A&O Railroad forum. Member Bob Sobol has a background in electrical engineering and electronics, is adept at identifying issues and solutions, and is a Tang Band fan. We got to discussing things and ultimately Bob decided to cut open a non-functional 1931 module. There is a fair amount of chatter over there about his findings, but the immediate net result that I took away is that the speaker enclosure walls are in excess of .070", which is more than initially expected. So I could in fact safely remove additional material from the housing to facilitate fit inside any number of locomotive shells.

The speaker and decoder will sit on a styrene shelf that spans over the motor and drive line. I am using .125" x .250" Evergreen styrene tube as a beam along either side of the shelf. This will provide support to prevent sagging, and also act as conduit for running wires in proximity to the motor and flywheels. With the .250" dimension, there is about .0625" between the bottom of the shelf and the top of the motor. While I cannot fit a larger square tube between the shelf and motor, I can fit one .125" x .250" oriented vertically plus the same tube oriented horizontally (not shown). So I have plenty of "conduit" for routing wires.


Here the radiator core housing with HO etched roofwalk material is in place. The idea is to hide the speaker while allowing sound out of the shell. I may try to find a tighter mesh to more closely mimic the prototype, but I feel like this indicates that the concept will work.




There's not a lot of room left after the decoder and speaker are placed. The Loksound decoder mounts to a motherboard, which is nice for wiring but takes more room than the decoder would by itself. I was planning to have space for a screw terminal block or plug located between the speaker and decoder. This may or may not happen. Right now I'm moving things around trying to find enough extra space to fit connectors and wiring in a way that makes sense and meets at least the goal of being able to unplug headlight and numberboard wires before removing the shell.

I can raise the decoder up by at least .250" to gain some real estate underneath it, and I can utilize a fair amount of area underneath the cab floor. The fuel tank would normally be a nice place to put something like the keep alive, but modifications to it to match prototype have taken up most of the room there.


I feel confident that in the end I will fit everything in a manner that meets the goals stated above. It's just going to take some careful planning and execution to pull it off.

I know several people on WT are using the Tang Band speakers. If you head over to the A&O site, you will find some interesting discussion on the topic. One conclusion, for myself anyway, is that I can fit the 1931 module in most any hood style locomotive shell with some careful removal of material. Tang Band offers several speaker modules, with the most likely candidates for use in O scale being the 2008, 1925, and 1931 modules. The 2008 is quite small. It offers decent bass response, but would be a concession to tight quarters. The 1925 module would fit in nearly any O scale locomotive without modification, and has a stated F0 response of 150 Hz. The 1931 module will require some work to fit in hood units (no problem in full width or cowl style units), but has a stated F0 of only 105 Hz. I only want to pursue sound in my locos if I feel that it can be convincing. Maximizing the depth and quality of the bass is important to me for that reason.

Other work will be forthcoming. I have any number of parts ready to print so that will be the next step. I can move forward with the body work next.

All for now,
Jim

 

[Steph Dale]

Jim,
Had you thought to use PCB or stripboard instead of plasticard? This would cut out a chunk of wiring to move current back and forward up and down the chassis. Not knowing what's on the decoder's backplane there's the possibility of mounting the connectors for the decoder straight on the PCB/stripboard and saving yourself some space.

So; what's on the backplane other than connectors? The connectors aren't anything special...

Steph

 

[Big Train James]

Jim,
Had you thought.......

Errrr, no . Actually I had thought about using PCB for a bus for the lighting. But I have zero experience with that sort of thing, so it's scary to me .

The motherboard is just solder pads, connectors, and corresponding traces. I think it's so you can swap the decoder if it goes bad, without fully reworking the wires. Of course what happens when the motherboard goes bad?





I read on another forum where somebody soldered directly to the pins on the decoder because they wanted to use the Loksound L 4.0 but the motherboard wouldn't fit. I think that's beyond my skill level at the moment.

 

[Steph Dale]

I think that's beyond my skill level at the moment.

Trust me; it's not!

As I say, those connectors are only JST types. We'd need to know the pitch and pin size and correct ones could be picked up for a couple of bucks. I know I've still got a couple of things to do for you (I now have thought about it...!), but working out how to do is possible.

Here's an example (it's a keep-alive, rather than lighting backplane, but you should get the idea):http://www.euram-online.co.uk/dcc/zimopp/zimopp.htm a ten year old Steph and Dave special!

Steph