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Discussion in 'S7 Group' started by eastsidepilot, 29 December 2012.
Happy New Year to you , how's things on the other side of the pond mate ?
Thanks for the info, just the sort of info we have been looking for and of great interest to a lot of the folk here on WT also I don't doubt.
We'll have to start a boat section at this rate.
I'm going to have to clean the drawing board off and work up a drg for a model barge and lighter.
Certainly will, Captain Noah Dowling, what with the rain we have had in the last week.
Hi again Colin
things have been busy since I got back from the UK. I had 5 weeks rushing around the outback catching up on work that I had missed, then was back in Adelaide for two days when my wife went into labour a month earlier than expected. All good now though, although I haven't much time for modeling with the baby and a 2 year old. I have however started five weeks off work so I should be able to get my baseboards done.
I asked my dad today about the Carina and the Varuna and found out that while the Decima that still exists was sister ship to the Varuna. The Melissa (I believe currently based at Pin Mill) was one of 8 barges built in 1898 for Goldsmiths and was sistership to the Carina (although the Carina has a bowsprit in the photo and I'm not sure if the Melissa is currently fitted with one). So both in the Photo have existing examples to copy if you want to go to that degree of accuracy. Also to simplify things a bit you could model an auxilary barge. That is a sailing barge that has an engine installed and its rig removed or reduced. Typically they were fitted with a small wheelhouse and retained the mainmast and sprit to use as a derrick. These coversions started in the late 30s and really took off in the 40s after the war. The advantage with this is a much simplified rig to model although they look ugly compaired to a fully rigged barge. I will try to find a photo and post it in a dedicated thread on Barges. At least 2 ex-salingbarges were still trading as auxillaries when I was sailing on the TSB Portlight in 1991.
On another note in regards to plans and drawings they do not exist for most barges, smacks etc. from 100+ years ago as they were built from half or full hull models rather than plans. My grandfather had a full hull one and I saw at least one barge of that design being bulldozed (with about 50 others + as many lighters) into Whitewall creek near Rochester in 1991, there is now a Mcdonalds on the site
I thought the model was sold some years ago but it turns out my cousin has it. I'm not sure of the scale but its probably about 1m long. It is very detailed down to the individual hatch covers having carved roman numerals but it is just the hull and deck fittings (no rigging). If you like I could have a word with him if you were keen to look at it. He is at St Osyth. When I was there in September there was 4 full size barges on site (TSBs EDME, Vigilant, Thallata and Cygnet) plus a half dozen lighters (although these have each had an end removed so the can be used as floating drydocks).
Anyway I will start a barge thread in the next day or so and an introduction thread also so this one can go back to disscusing your planned layout rather than barges.
Having sailed many times on TSB Dawn from Maldon (icluding acouple of week long east coast floating pub Crawls I'll be interested in seeing the barge thread. Dawn by the way in her working life was a stackie: ie bring hay into London and Horse manure out.
Found this http://www.tonyscottageboatyard.co.uk/index.htm and right on my doorstep too.
The 1/4" to the foot hulls are close enough to be usable.
the 1:48 model of the Kitty looks good the Canns built barges are the my favorites and the Kitty was the first barge I sailed on as a child. The same bloke has an advert towards the bottom of the Assocation of Barge modelers website.
Problem is the Kitty hull is listed as 27inches, the actual barge is 88ft but at 1:48 27inches is 108ft. At 1:43 it is 96feet. At 27 inches it would be a lot closer to 1inch=meter.
The sizes of barges varied alot from the Cygnet at 42feet through to the Will, Ethel, Fred and Alf Everard barges at 97.5 feet.
96feet is on the very big size especially for a wooden barge but not totally out of the realms of reality.
There is however a 20inch hull on the list which at 72ft in 7mm would very nicely suit barges built prior to 1880 and the smaller Kentish built barges such as Lady of the Lea or Nellie.
The great bulk of suitable barges would be in the 78-90ft range so a hull size of 22-25 would be perfect for 7mm.
As you can see from the above website Thames Sailing Barge Modeling and racing is a hobby in its own right but the dominant scale is 1:24.
I have been having a look around online and found some more useful iformation. The TSB Hydrogen built 1906 as a wooden Boomie or ketch rigged barge as converted to Spritsail/Mulie rig (I will explain in my other thread) in the 1920s she still exists at Maldon and is 94ft long so getting close enough. The topsail charters website describes her as the largest remaining wooden barge so premumeably there was at least one larger. I don't know a huge amount about the big boomies so I will ask around.
Also I found these snippets of information on the Thames sailing barge trust website
"Several barges were moored in the estuaries to act as mobile platforms for lookouts as part of the anti aircraft/submarine/ E boat warfare although their main duty was to report German aircraft dropping mines into the sea. Nearly 60 barges were used on the south coast for this duty.
Several barges were moored in the Port of London with barrage ballons attached as part of the Port defences.
After the war the barges were decommissioned although it was not until 1947 when the last sailing barge was returned to it's owners although the subsequent decline proved that for the sailing barge World War two provided it's last hurrah."
"After the Second World War many factors hastened the demise of the Thames sailing barge as a sail trading vessel. Although the fleet had dwindled to 34 sailing barges 44 with auxillary engines and a further 82 trading as pure motor barges with their masts and sails removed by 1954, he survival of what was now the largest fleet of trading sailing vessels in Europe was a uniquely British phenomenon."
and finally from Topsail Journal of the Society for Spritsail Barge Research
regarding barges returned after the war
"The larger old sailing barges that were still reasonably sound beneath their waterlines were often purchaced by by London literage companies for use as "dummy" or "Roads Barges" i.e. permanently moored hulks on which to moor lighters that were not required at their destination. The comparitively wide decks of a sailing barge made the task of a lighterman when scrambling on board easier and safer. Often these "dummy" barges had small redundant railway coach bodies lifted aboard for use as living quarters for the roads man or mooring attendant."
Yep, like the geezer in the Lynx deoderant advert......I wish.
Fascinating stuff Bill, I'm filing all this mate.
By the way on the proposed permanent layout that Bow Creek Wharf will be part of there will be over 30 feet(thats not scale ft) of barge bank on the front of the base boards.
More than likely, but this little chap could manage it, and might look good in Bow Creek Wharf. You could even cook bacon on the exhaust manifold and I dare say get enough hot water out of the radiator for a mug of tea.....
Here's a couple of doodles which give a flavour of what I'd like to achieve, I'm no artist so some of the proportions may be off a bit
There were some odd little shunting loco's built for various railway companies. Bow Creek is in LNER ground c1945-6 and the type of loco's used in the variuos yards and wharfs were the Y4 and Y5 0-4-0 tanks, so I'm hoping to have one example of each ready in time for the challenge.
Both will be scratch builds with parts produced on the pantograph miller.
It'd be nice to see these in S7. The Y4 looks an interesting challenge, especially with the reversing linkage above footplate level. What's the plan for assembly? Will the footplate be attached to the chassis and then tanks and boiler bolted on?
The cab caught my eye as well, especially with the steel plate blocking the front windows. Then with all the coal on the top of the firebox I presume that part of the tank at the rear is actually the coal bunker. It makes you wonder why they put any windows in the front spectacle plate in the first place.
It's great to see how Bow Creek Wharf will come together Col. The pictures of the Y4 and Y5 are fantastic, full of character and atmosphere. I particularly like the spark arrestor on the Y4, very erm ergonomic !! I have a picture of a J71 similarly fitted on King George Dock, Hull. I can only guess they were fitted for the same purpose, for the J71 it was for when shunting in the timber yard, pit proprs and the like, would the Y4 be the same? I also like the oil cans and buckets on the footplate of the Y5. I'm really looking forward to seeing these little work horses take shape,
Errr! I think you may have got the Y4 and Y5 mixed up. 8081 is a Y5 and 8126 is the Y4. I love the size of the lumps of coal on the Y5, a couple of them would fill the firebox!
Oops, can you tell I have zero knowlege of the prototype Nevermind, great pictures in any case, I think the Y4 is my favourate with it's USA tank looking cylinders,
I look forward to seeing Bow Creek develop - I think at least a sound fitted ex GE engine with a Westinghouse pump must be included - just to hear the pump operating.
Will you be posting a thread on the building of the Thames barge?
I'll build it traditionaly with the footplate as part of the superstructure, so I'll have to work out a way of disconnecting the linkage, I'll have a better idea once I have studied the drg's.