BR 4MT 2-6-4T - resource material

AJC

Western Thunderer
Adam

Not at all overwrought, I found it most interesting. Surely though the point of an archive is that it is a repository of information collected from a single or many sources that can be accessed by those so wishing to, in the easiest manner possible. That the archive is organised in a way that doesn't recognise the origin of the information, and so confuses any user is at best self serving, and otherwise just plain perverse. It may well be that it is done that way generally, but since I, you, and the rest of the UK are paying for this, in the sense of national archives, it would seem to me that it should at least serve the potential users as best as possible rather than the choice of the archivist. Having said that I don't suppose it's easy.

I do however appreciate that resources are finite and extremely limited, and in the scheme of things not very high on the list of things to do. Thanks for explaining it from the other point of view.


Regards
Martin

Catalogue again, I'm afraid. If usability of individual records was the aim we'd have cut up and reassembled Domesday Book centuries back and we wouldn't have it now. We copied it instead so still have the original and working copies. It's still an utter pig to use in any printed or electronic form which can be sliced and diced in dozens of ways. The 1941 National Farm Survey is much easier in many ways but exists in the form of millions of bits of paper in envelopes. That's catalogued at parish level - you could go to farm, farmer, number of tractors, horses...

Catalogue design is one of those areas of information science where I'm generally too scared to tread: two people can have hundreds of different views depending on what they do or don't know about what they're looking for.

Catalogues are getting better, but even the best started out as card indexes and most have no choice but to preserve the way in which things ended up in the archive. Some still are, card indexes, of course. The collection-based approach is more or less the only sustainable way to introduce new collections into a collection.

Now, if like me, you have a penchant for Churchward locomotives you have a quandary... for the relevant material in the NRM is marked as "do not produce" which rather negates the point of having the material. Please do not ask how I know, suffice to say that I had to push a bit to learn that I was not going to be able to see what is in the drawing store.

No, or at least, not categorically. What archives are about, basically, is not production for researchers - that's very recent, the last couple of hundred years or so - but so that an organisation knows about itself and managing the decay of that knowledge.

Here's my favourite example of this process. Allow me to present TNA E 163/24/31: Sir Henry Cole's Rat

It's a rat. Stuffed full of parchment. This belongs to an Exchequer series which spans c.1154 to c.1800 and presented as part of an enquiry into the state of the rolls of Chancery: Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer | The National Archives

Since it's a mummified 19th century rat, it too is now decaying - I've had a 3D print of it on my desk. The series will also contain - as well as loads of parchment and velum - paper, wood, leather (in the form of bags, pouches, thongs tying things together, all sorts), boxes, tins, paper, whole generations of paperclip and the skincells of clerks, archivists and researchers long dead.

The point of the archive is to make sure that what we have today is available tomorrow. Public accessibility now has to be traded off against that in 5, 10 or 100 years time. Conservation for preservation and production is extremely skilled, very time-consuming an incredibly expensive. That's the archivists' province so we play by their rules and if the catalogue doesn't work the way that we as users would like, it's best to tell the archivists themselves that so that they can explain why that is, where what you are after actually is (if they've got it) or what uncatalogued - or barely sorted - stuff is out the back. The NRM has a relatively small amount of that sort of thing, a mere lifetime or two's unsorted material submitted in often fairly chaotic ways. Compared to the National Archives, they're minor league players.

Adam
 
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mickoo

Western Thunderer
For digital systems, that only holds true if both the index and search term are spelt correctly...!

Steph
Ahh, but our system has a wild card, (%), add that to any search with a minimum of three characters and it'll find all the parts, it's amazing how many ways you can spell switch!
 

adrian

Flying Squad
Since it's a mummified 19th century rat, it too is now decaying - I've had a 3D print of it on my desk.
An interesting ice-breaker for any visitors!!
The NRM has a relatively small amount of that sort of thing, a mere lifetime or two's unsorted material submitted in often fairly chaotic ways. Compared to the National Archives, they're minor league players.
Definitely puts things into perspective - and if they are struggling then the task for the National Archive must be monumental!
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
An interesting ice-breaker for any visitors!!

Definitely puts things into perspective - and if they are struggling then the task for the National Archive must be monumental!

They have half a salt mine in Cheshire. I can't remember, offhand, how much completely uncatalogued medieval material they have, never mind later stuff but it's a lot. Literally millions of files, tens, possibly hundreds of millions of individual pieces and of course, there's always more coming in and what you've got is always finding ingenious ways of falling apart. No rats, these days, hopefully.

Adam
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
I have had lots of success over the years using terms like 'unidentified', 'unknown', 'anonymous' when searching catalogues, especially for photographs and drawings. It can take a bit of time to work out which term is used in the catalogue for things the cataloguer didn't know about or couldn't be bothered to look at. I am using a drawing at the moment found this way, the station it shows was demolished in the 1920s but it is a mirror image for one I am working on for which the drawings aren't available so it has been traced and mirrored in cad. The contract date was clearly visible so the location could be confirmed even though the title was illegible.
 
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Dog Star

Western Thunderer
There are several on-line builds of the MOK BR Std 4MT tank... two are on WT. Each of the builds that I have read mentions that there are prototype variations in how the coupled wheel springs are attached to the spring hanger brackets. The instructions provide one option and hint at a second - parts are included to represent a spring hanger bolt with two nuts visible below the suspension cup (which the instructions refers to as a Spencer block). The upper nut is for adjusting weight on the axle and the lower nut for locking that adjustment. This makes sense to me.

The instructions describes an alternative where the lower end of the spring hanger bolt and what secures the bolt in place are hidden within the suspension cup. I do not understand how this works given that adjustment of the loco weight per axle is going to require serious spanners if the spring hanger is threaded. I have no information as to which class members have the nuts visible below the suspension cups and which do not.

What does the collective WT-mind know about this variation?

Anyone any pictures of the parts either in place or on the floor?

thank you, Graham
 
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oldravendale

Western Thunderer
I have a photo of 80135 at Barry in November '67 so soon after withdrawal and 80139 at Basingstoke in July '67. Possibly the photo of 80135 may tell you what you need to know if it's from the same batch. 80139 is a bit "moody" and inside the shed so the details are somewhat less distinct. I'm happy to make either or both available if useful. Both are my copyright so normal caveats apply.

Brian
 

Ressaldar

Western Thunderer
Brian,

would you also have a shot showing the AWS shoe/arrangement on the 4MT tank? I cannot see anything on the pictures that I have access to.

regards

Mike
 

Ressaldar

Western Thunderer
Hi Brian,

many thanks for taking the trouble to look. I'll continue the quest.

Seasons greetings from a very foggy Wirral.

Mike
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
Graham
I've never heard of any changes to spring hanger arrangements, nor have I read anything in any books to support this so whilst acknowledging that it is a possibility, I'm at this stage inclined to believe it's a bit of an embellished modeller's tale. Of course this will prompt every Tom, Dick, and Harry out of the woodwork with photos damning me. I will be at Bo'ness over the holidays avec camera so I'll see if springs are lying around.
Mike
As above I'll take some pics, certainly 105 has an AWS head.
Regards
Martin
 

Ressaldar

Western Thunderer
Martin,

that would be very kind of you. I am finishing mine as 80037 which was fitted with AWS, Speedo and SR cab roof lifting brackets in July 1960.

Seasons greetings from a now fog free Wirral.

Mike
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
Right Gentlemen
Been at the railway today and went snap snap all around the Std 4. After each picture I have added a description of what is seen. most of you will already know anyway, but for completeness sake if nothing else.

IMG_0402.1.jpg
The rearmost section of the frames essentially under the bunker, the bits of tinware don't belong there, convenient storage/dumping ground.

IMG_0403.1.jpg
The platework under the cab floor.

IMG_0404.1.jpg

The drivers pedestal, from the top AWS indicator, vacuum brake valve, blower valve, sanding valve.

IMG_0405.1.jpg

Frame stays and hornguide LH rear driver, my boot.

IMG_0406.1.jpg

Frame stays again.

IMG_0407.1.jpg
Looking forward from a position more or less at the boiler backhead, if it were there.

IMG_0408.1.jpg
Frame cutout with horn guides for axlebox and spring hanger brackets.

IMG_0409.1.jpg
Brake hanger bracket

IMG_0410.1.jpg
RH expansion link with trunnions in brackets bolted to the rear of the motion plate. Lifting lever for slideblock in radius rod.

IMG_0411.1.jpg
Expansion link and motion bracket.

More later
Martin
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
I think I might have got to the bottom of the story re spring hangers. When originally designed both top and bottom of the spring hanger had a collet arrangement with various thickness wedges inserted to alter the spring rate and hence weight distribution. This was a mighty faff to alter or change a spring so someone came up with the idea of converting the lower end to be retained by a nut and locknut, much as a Black 5. What is important to know is that this happened in the preservation era and didn't pertain to locos when withdrawn by BR. I'm told that the bogie and pony primary springs retain the original arangement, but since they are also stripped at the moment I cant get any pictures.

Regards
Martin
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
Batch 2
IMG_0412.1.jpg

RH motion bracket from front.

IMG_0413.1.jpg

RH mechanical lubricator and perch.

IMG_0414.1.jpg
RH cylinder rear with mountings for slidebars.

IMG_0415.1.jpg
RH rear of valve chest, lubrication atomisers above.

IMG_0416.1.jpg
Close up of atomisers

IMG_0417.1.jpg

Rear of LH libricator and filler pipes for front sandbox.

IMG_0418.1.jpg

LH valves and cylinder from front.

IMG_0419.1.jpg

LH front framing

IMG_0420.1.jpg

LH front footstep and buffer beam gussets

IMG_0421.1.jpg
Spring hanger bracket.

More later
Martin
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
Batch 3

IMG_0422.1.jpg
Grease nipples for horns.

IMG_0423.1.jpg

Rear of LH expansion link

IMG_0424.1.jpg

Motion bracket

IMG_0425.1.jpg

Valve chest front cover

IMG_0426.1.jpg

LH rear valve chest cover and valve spindle crosshead slide bars

IMG_0427.1.jpg

Valve spindle slidebars with slipper blocks.

IMG_0428.1.jpg
Driving wheel springs.

IMG_0429.JPG
RH crosshead (top surface).

IMG_0430.1.jpg
RH crosshead (front view).

IMG_0431.1.jpg
Regulator valve seat. This is usually inside the dome and therefore not visible.

That's enough for today, I'll do the rest tomorrow. All of these pictures are my copyright and are posted on Western Thunder for personal use of members of the forum. If you want to repost them elsewhere I'll likely have no objection but please let me know first.

Regards
Martin
 
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