Building an Ace Kits "K"

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Dad,

H1 + H2 in BR days had hot-water injectors; you need the Ashford type as Dave suggests; or a Weir pump and exhaust injector if modelling it just a touch earlier.

Check the chimneys too - some Ks had U chimneys as this was effectively the standard chimney the SR used on the cut-down Brighton locos. I think one is available from Laurie Griffin, incorrectly identified as being for an N15)

For the dome you can just take a file to the casting can't you? I seem to recall my K kit had three or maybe even four domes and certainly I think I identified one which was correct. I was rather more annoyed about lack of the Weir pump and the fact that I failed, despite numerous attempts, to get the correct style one from Scorpio...

Steph

Thanks for this too, Steph.

The loco in question is the one I started the thread with, 32337. I'm thinking that this would therefore be the Ashford type injectors, I hope from LG?? As it'll be post 1960 I also believe that the Weir pump will have been replaced. As for chimneys, I think the shorter one in the kit is OK but I'll have another look (for the third time). I'll still try for the cut down boiler mountings.

I wondered about cutting the supplied dome down. It's certainly an option but I'll see if there's anything about while at Telford. If not I'll get the old bastard file out.

Before I start cutting metal on this one I'll have to re-read all the advice for which I thank everyone.

Brian/Dad
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Brian

Yes, LG for the Ashford injectors and no Weir feed pump - these were removed from the Ks in early BR days with the last in 1953.

David
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Right...... (or not!).

I went to see that nice Mr Laurie Griffin when at Guildex in order to purchase the bits and pieces I needed and confused myself thoroughly looking at the range despite Laurie's best efforts to help. I'm therefore taking the liberty of asking WT'ers to look at my list of proposed purchases to see if I have the correct identification for each item. The list includes stuff from Bill Ascough and also pleas for help where I can't find an item in LG's catalogue.

Just as a reminder, the chosen loco is 32337 just before withdrawal - see the photo within the first posting in this thread.

  • Cut down dome. First failing - the proposal was one from Ace Products but looking at the C2X that dome seems to be too tall so what is the loco appropriate to this dome? (I'll try filing the one in the kit to shape but need to know the proper casting in case I bugg spoil it).
  • Composite Gauge Chimney. Laurie Griffin 6-45 for N15 Class (wrongly described in catalogue re Steph).
  • BR Safety Valves and Base. Laurie has a range of these but I could find none described as BR type. Can some kind person give me the catalogue reference?
  • Injectors - 2 live steam. I believe these are LG ref 15-19, SECR/SR. Is that correct?
  • Cut Down Boiler Mountings. From Bill Ascough, and I believe the ones for the C2X are appropriate.
  • Slidebars and Crossheads for H1/H2 Atlantics. LG Code 10-42
  • Cylinder Relief Valves for Z Class. LG Code 10-44
  • Cylinder Drain Cocks. LG Code 10-45
  • Front Footsteps. LG Code 21-34 (for H2 Atlantic). That's a guess as I don't have a picture of the LG castings.
  • Westinghouse Pump. LG shows two, small as 32-1 and large as 32-2. Which is appropriate?
This is the list as complete as I can make it at the moment. Any advice about items still missing from the list will be appreciated.

Due to the intervention of holidays etc the 9F build has been on hold for a while and I'm about to restart that. The DJH A3 still awaits test running and debugging although I've now purchased the speaker and decoder for that. The K will fit in somewhere between the 9F and the Finney A3 which is barely started. I've decided I'm never going to die as I have too many projects to complete - 61 at the last count although in my defence I have the four mentioned above on the bench right now!

Brian
 

Scanlon

Western Thunderer
Hi Brian,

If Bill Ascough can supply you with the cut down boiler mountings I'd not worry about the C2X dome or any other. Looking at photos of 32337 from 1959 to her demise she had the flat topped dome similar to that on my model which is Bill's.

As for the safety valves, these were the standard Ross Pop type and those fitted to Ivatt Cl.2's would be appropriate but can't find them in LG's catalogue; he certainly did do them some years ago as my Ivatt 2-6-2t was upgraded using them. However they do not have a base so you might like to look at those fitted to the Stanier/Lemon 0-4-4t, LG 24-16 might be appropriate, the base certainly looks very similar to that fitted to the K also the valves are Ross Pop.

Injectors, personally I'd use 15-27 as they are the later SR type, slidebars, front footspteps - correct.

In my opinion you only need LG 10-44 for the cylinders. According to the "bible" written by Bradley the cylinders were fitted with combined water and relief valves.

The Westinghouse pump on my loco is 24mm tall and as far as I'm aware is that supplied by Bill A.
The boiler backhead as supplied by Bill A is incorrect for all K's once fitted with live steam injectors. It has backhead clacks cast onto it whereas from the early 1930's the clacks were on the boiler sides. I do not know of anyone who does and appropriate backhead for an LBSCR Belpair firebox. My loco is also missing a twin feed hydrostatic lubricator but I cannot find anyone who produces the SR style. Now my K has been brought out from the shadows she will get a "portly" crew to hide these indiscretions.


Hope this is of help.
Roger
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Hope this is of help.
Roger

You bet it helps!

I'll be ringing LG and Bill very shortly. Just want to check for the dome in the kit once again. I'm pretty sure there was only one, but I may have miscounted (what comes after one?:))

I'll see what Bill says about the dome as, at the moment I've no idea which of his kits the lower, flatter dome comes from. He may recognise the query, of course. I'm also going to look at the Westinghouse pump in the kit. It may possibly pass muster.

Helpful comments about the back head too. I don't suppose you have any photos of the correct back head, do you? Otherwise I'll probably hack something out of the one provided and try to make it look correct. Or perhaps I'll follow your lead and find a roly poly crew.

Continuing to appreciate your assistance, Roger. It was good to meet you at Telford and thank you indeed for bringing your K and other locos to show me. If I can achieve anything near that I'll be delighted. As I proceed I may well come back to you and take up your kind offer of pictures.

Best regards.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Well, the DJH A3, being complete, has now been broken down to component parts and cleaned ready for painting. It's drying out in it's propagator box in the lounge. No photos of that because any changes since the last photos have been minor - you'll have to wait until I've finished the paint job and that may have to wait until we have some decent weather. As for the 9F - well, I've lost my mojo on that at the moment, as the injector mountings have fallen off the ready painted chassis - again! - and awaits cleaning up and resoldering in place, using some discrete brass angle to provide a more secure mounting.

So (and come on, own up, I bet you thought I'd chicken out of this one:p) I've actually started the dreaded Ace Kits "K". In my normal fashion, and just to get a sense of the designer's intentions, I've started with the tender. Internal frame sides have been cut from the fret with their spacers. And low and behold, six parts so far and two cock ups (or should that be cocks up?) In fact, if you multiply the errors by the number of pieces/joints involved it's a total of twelve in just six parts! See below (and please forgive the crappy photos).

100_2106.JPG 100_2106 - Copy.JPG

The problems with this so far:

I want to fit insulated sprung horn blocks so will have to cut out the necessary slots. To get them identical I'll want to solder both sides together for the cutting out. My normal means of doing this would be to solder the two sides together using some circular bearings temporarily soldered in place in the bearing holes but (have you got there ahead of me?) the bearing holes are TOO LARGE FOR THE BEARINGS PROVIDED so they slop around and could not be used to line up shopping in a basket. Fortunately, having checked my spare bearings I've found two which are oversize and careful reaming of the holes in the inside frame sides will allow a fit.

So, having cut the slots what pleasures await me? The frame spacer tabs are far too small for the slots in the sides so they float about and will need to have some careful fitting and soldering in place to make them match the tender footplate. The holes in the two end spacers are intended to be the means of locating the frames on the footplate so their correct positioning is essential. I'll have to do that by passing a rod or similar through the footplate and frame spacer as I solder it in place on two sides. So that'll only need two pairs of hands and some asbestos gloves.

Never having built an Ace Kit before I did not know what to expect, except that it wouldn't, by reputation, be easy. That's what comes of buying cheap kits! However, it's the only kit of the LBSCR K which is available and it's a prototype I want in my collection. This will almost certainly be a long term project and will run alongside a couple of other kits so I can calm my nerves - one of them will be a Finney A3 so there will be something to enjoy during the times of frustration.

Are we having fun yet?.......

Brian
 

Ressaldar

Western Thunderer
Hi Brian,

there seems to be a generous amount of 'float' between the length of the tab on the spacer and the length of the slot on the side - a portent of what is to come?

Best of luck.

Mike
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
This may make a good comedy thread, Richard. I won't rename it - everybody will just remember that it's good for a laugh after this.;)

As for the float, Mike, you are so right. It's in the vertical and horizontal planes too, so there's no accurate guide to location. Hope the loco frames are better.........

Actually, having considered I'm wondering whether to make up my own spacers. They could be in thicker metal so they fill the vertical space and obviously with wider tabs. Trouble is, with my comedy metal cutting skills I'll probably end up with the tabs on each side slightly different, which will put me back to exactly where I'll be with the ones from the kit.

Decisions, decisions.

B
 

Jon Fitness

Western Thunderer
This kit sounds rather like the Waggon and Carriageworks SECR H class I rather rashly offered to build for a friend. The etched chassis sides aren't quite a matched pair, and the axlebox holes are about 1mm different to the coupling rods. The chassis has machined spacers front and middle with a perspex one for the bogie. If you screw the chassis together using the spacers and put the axles through the holes they are at an angle...correction, 2 slightly different angles...
In the words of a well known Pink Floyd song, "Wrooonngg! Do it again!"
JF
 

Rob Pulham

Western Thunderer
Actually, having considered I'm wondering whether to make up my own spacers. They could be in thicker metal so they fill the vertical space and obviously with wider tabs. Trouble is, with my comedy metal cutting skills I'll probably end up with the tabs on each side slightly different, which will put me back to exactly where I'll be with the ones from the kit.

Decisions, decisions.

B

Just a thought Brian, but could you not use some of your shim material to beef up the tabs to fill the vertical space - at least that would ensure that they were in the right place.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
More comedy kit building today - more problems found. The title should definitely be updated to "The Comedy of Building an Ace Kits K".:))

The build sounds very much like your SECR H Class, Jon, although the side frames of the tender do at least appear symmetrical. In fact they've been etched as mirror images so should be identical. Which is more than can be said for the spacers, Rob and below you'll see why I decided to make new ones, although even these may still need beefing up with a bit of shim.

The saga continues:

I was back in the work shop yesterday still debating whether to cut new frame stretchers or not. My mind was made up by this:

100_2115.JPG

Not entirely easy to see but on viewing afresh I felt there was something not quite right about the stretchers. I laid them on top of one another. On studying them I confirmed that the centre holes are not in the centre. Neither are the tabs identical on each. So only one option, and hence the reason for the proposed change of title. There now follows some comedy hacking about of random bits of metal.

I also rechecked the side frames and found that the slots for the stretchers are not identical sizes. Neither do they match any of the random tabs on the stretchers.

So, with the mellow tones of Mark Lanegan on the diesel CD player (don't ask, but if interested look him up on U Tube. Can't have steam radio on this erudite site, can we?) I set to work.

100_2111.JPG
100_2109.JPG
I found some .5mm nickel silver strip of about the correct width - enough to make half a dozen spacers. I need only four, but will use the others as vertical spacers as all the kit caters for is horizontal ones. I chopped it in to the six pieces needed and sweated them all together. The sides were filed back to be level and then the ends squared off.

100_2118.JPG

An application of felt tip pen was made to the surface and it was marked out with a scriber for cutting out and the centre was punched ready for drilling. The centre was then drilled on my drill press - at this point it's not important what size as I'm fully expecting to have to make my own arrangements for attaching the tender chassis to the body, and I'll probably use 8BA screws through the chassis and soldered nuts on the footplate - I can enlarge the hole when I'm ready.

100_2120.JPG

Here's the hacked about stack of spacers/stretchers, all drilled to a common centre.

100_2126.JPG

A few moments with the gas torch and they were separated in to their individual - and now identical - pieces. And that was it for yesterday.

100_2131.JPG

Today was side frame day. The internal side frames have already featured in my first posting, so here they are after hacking out for the insulated sprung hornblocks. You can see the marking up, again using a spirit permanent marker on the surface before marking out. There was no cut out marking on the frames as supplied so, with much trepidation I went ahead and followed the instructions with the new style Slaters insulated hornblocks - you know, the ones I said I'd never use! (Sorry Steph, but I had a set to use up, and this seemed an appropriate project as everything else is experimental!)

Before cutting out the slots using a piercing saw I set up the jig with the normal bearings in the bearing holes to give me the correct spacings.

100_2134.JPG
And oh - I'm so proud. Look, it all fits on the pins perfectly. You'll note that I especially cleaned up the bench for this photo.

Tomorrow I'll solder up the new spacers/stretchers and glue in the hornblocks. While the Devcon 24-hour dries I'll start splitting the axles and shorting out the wheels.

In summary and putting all joking aside the standard of the kit so far is truly appalling. I don't remember ever seeing a kit previously with so many errors in such a small number of components. All I can say is "Richard - you wuz quite correct!"

But what a challenge.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Those horn guides are going to be very visible aren't they?

Steph
I'm hoping that, as they are internal frames they won't show at all. But we'll see....... Don't forget that you are looking at the inside view.

If they do, then I'll have to use a set from another manufacturer. But who could that be? Hmmmm. SPMD or something similar (is that correct?):))

B
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Brian,

I think what Steph means is that they will be visible from the rear of the tender, I have the same problem with my Fowler tender and they are really obvious when viewed from the rear and not even really low down, I ended up thinning mine by half, but they are still visible.

View attachment 40134
Ah! Gottit, Mick.

I set the internal frames up today and think that I may be able to thin down and otherwise reduce the depth and width of the last set of hornblocks. It'll rather depend on where the buffer beam comes. In fact, based on today's efforts it looks as though these internal frames are not the full length of the footplate, so I'll have an infinite number of possibilities where I can fit the internal frames in both x and y axis!

I'm still smarting from a kit that's not quite unbuildable, but without having a deal of experience I'd have given up already! In fairness I wuz warned. I wonder how many of these have been rejected, and how successfully, for not being of merchantable quality. That's academic now as I've hacked it about too much to even consider returning it, which I'd not do anyway as it is now firmly a challenge.

Other comments suggest that this is not the worst of the bunch either.

Brian
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Visible from the side too, Mick.
The cut outs in the side frames are pretty big and there's no great chunks of water scoop or vacuum brake gear to distract the eye - most of the air brake system is hidden up in the frames under the water tank well out of sight.

Dad,
What wheels are you using for the tender? Slaters I guess, but which ones?

Steph
 
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