Converting Lionheart Auto Trailer to S7

GWR Jim

Western Thunderer
Hello.

Having recently purchased one of the above trailers I would be very grateful for any advice on issues found converting same to S7

I had a discussion with a customer who was standing, like me at the Lionheart stand, about this matter and he seemed to think it was a very difficult operation to carry out!!

I would like to get some views before tinkering with mine ;)

Many thanks.
James
 

daifly

Western Thunderer
James - that may well have been me! I currently have one bogie reduced to a kit while I examine the options. Part of the issue is the shorter axle length which does not allow a drop-in replacement from e.g. Slater's or Peartree. If I recall correctly, the Lionheart axles are also split to allow the bogie internal frames to collect current for the optional DCC sound chip to be fitted. Having done the DCC mod on a Finescale autocoach, I wouldn't bother again - it's a lot of dosh for a gong and a guards whistle (and a few other sounds). The Lionheart wheelsets method of construction does not appear to lend itself to adjusting the back-to-back.

I did ask Malcolm Fisher at Peartree about producing some S7 wheelsets of the Lionheart dimensions but it was suggested that a minimum order of 100 axles - enough for 25 coaches - would be required. That was rather more than I was prepared to fund in view of the limited likely interest.

I suspect that one way forward is to reduce the length of a Peartree axle in a lathe to keep the pinpoints and adjust the b2b or to cut a piece out of the centre of the axle and epoxy the cut ends into a piece of suitable inside diameter tube. The Peartree wheels are insulated at the hubs so can have the final b2b adjusted simply by easing the wheels on the axle.

I'll be interested to hear if you or anyone else has any other ideas.

Dave
 

Eastsidepilot

Western Thunderer
Might be just a case of re-profiling the wheels and making new axles:thumbs:, Dave can you post a picture of the dismantled bogie you have ?.

Col.
 

daifly

Western Thunderer
Hi Colin

In Italy at the mo but at home tomorrow pm. Half axle and wheel is one piece. The wheel profile is not an issue. It is the axle length that is the issue. I'll take/send photos later tomorrow.

Cheers

Dave
 

daifly

Western Thunderer
The promised photos. This shows, from the left, Peartree, Slaters, Lionheart and finally, the axle split on another Lionheart set. This illustrates the split axle construction with a short spline on one side and a plastic insert in the other side for the spline to force fit into. The two bearings show both sides - one with the coned cup.
Wheels and bearings.jpg
The bearings sit in the metal current collectors shaped appropriately to sit behind the bogie sides.
Bogie current collector.jpg
The bogie sides are a metal casting and the bearing tail fits into a shallow recess.
Bogie side frame.jpg
My memory served me poorly in that the Lionheart wheels and axles are not one piece, but the wheel is a force fit on the half-axle.

Some dimensions in mm sequenced Lionheart, Peartree, Slaters.
Axle length: 44, 46.2, 47.6

Across wheel faces: 37.1, 37.1, 37
Axle dia: 3.4, 3.15, 3.15
Wheel journal dia: 1.75, 1.45, 1.75

Tyre thickness: 3.54, 2.92, 2.97

Bearing cup face dia: 4.59
Bearing rear face dia: 3.71
Bearing thickness: 2.85
Bearing outer dia: 6.98

You can draw your own conclusions from all of this but my feeling is that the Lionheart wheels are not worth persevering with. My preference is to reduce the axle length of and put pinpoints on Peartree wheelsets and then reuse the Lionheart bearings etc.

Dave
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Very interesting piece on the different wheels and bearings, thank you. How are the bogie sides insulated from each other?

regards, Graham
 

GWR Jim

Western Thunderer
I wondered where my can of worms had gone. Dave must have borrowed them ;)

I have to say I do like the pin point axles that Lionheart use on their models.

I wonder how many Autotrailers there are out there needs converting to S7. Back to the drawing board?

James
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Dave, how are the wheels fitted to the axles? If press fit... how about asking if anyone within the S7 Group can make some split axles to fit the wheels / bearings?
 

daifly

Western Thunderer
Graham

The wheels are very firmly attached to the half-axles. The wheels themselves are poor representations of a Mansell type and are plated with a shiny finish. They are also much thicker than the S7 spec. Personally I think that attempts to salvage them would require too much time, effort (and expense!). Since the S7 Peartree wheels are insulated at the hub it should be a relatively straightforward job to reshape the axles to suit the rest of the Lionheart bearings and bogie frames.
 

Eastsidepilot

Western Thunderer
You'll still need a split axle for the current collection method used by Lionheart.
I still wonder if the wheels can be pulled off the axles and replaced with S7 profile wheels.
I did this with a Loveless Deltic and that also had extended axles.

Col.
 

Eastsidepilot

Western Thunderer
Agreed, but a magnet says that both wheel and axle are steel!

Dave, If they are plain steel then they can be re-profiled, if they can be pulled off the axle then it would be simple to convert.
The wheels can be reduced in thickness and spacers used to gauge them on the F/S axles.
If you don't like the look of the original's then other make wheels can be used, they'd just need shorting out for the split axle.

Col.
 

daifly

Western Thunderer
You'll still need a split axle for the current collection method used by Lionheart.
I still wonder if the wheels can be pulled off the axles and replaced with S7 profile wheels.
I did this with a Loveless Deltic and that also had extended axles.

Col.
I expect that you could do it Colin, but driving/pulling the axle out may be interesting without damaging the pinpoint. A replacement S7 wheel would obviously require packing to get the correct b2b. I'll bring them to Mark next month and you can have them to play with!
 

daifly

Western Thunderer
Hi Colin
Our postings crossed. As I said earlier, I wouldn't bother again to do a DCC installation so the split axle is superfluous. I truly think the effort and expense of removing the wheels, thinning, reprofiling, spacing etc would be far greater than simply replacing with a commercial S7 wheelset with a reprofiled axle end. Current collection would still be easy to arrange if required. The all-metal hub-insulated Peartree wheels would allow scrapers to bear on the back of the wheels. There is plenty of space under the bogie and the wiring is already in place.
 

GWR Jim

Western Thunderer
Hallo Dave

Many thanks for your input into this subject to you and Colin, as I've said, it seems to be a can of worms :eek:.

It looks like the way to go is to re-profile the axle ends to a set of Peartree wheels. I do not intend installing a decoder and I'm not even sure about lighting the coach so I might not reconnect for current collection.

It will be interesting to see what Colin makes of the wheels at the Mark show.
 

S7BcSR

Western Thunderer
This might seem to be a bit of a negative response as I am sure the ingenuity of this group will be able to sort it out but....
When the autotrailer first came out and I was thinking of buying one I was talking to Richard Webster about it he indicated that he couldn't produce an S7 version as it hadn't been taken account of when being designed. I then asked him about dropping S7 wheels in and again the response was one that indicated it would be very difficult to do and would take quite a bit of ingenuity. I didn't buy as I felt it would be too much effort for me at that time.
Perhaps a word with Richard might not be a bad thing as time has moved on and I am sure other S7 modellers will have talked to him about it and he may be aware of a solution that others have come up with.

Rob
 

ZiderHead

Western Thunderer
Quick question Jim - why bother machining the Peartree journals to pinpoints, could you not just use the Peartree supplied bearings?
 
Top