David Andrews 7mm Stanier 2 6 4 tank.

Discussion in 'Area 51' started by P A D, 9 February 2019.

  1. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    I made a couple of further additions and made a correction this afternoon.

    First the slot next to the reverser. I remembered that I had to narrow the tanks inside the cab which is why the slot is too close to the cab side to mount the reverser base, at least in the sense that there would be no room to turn the handle (on the real thing). Anyway, I cut a suitable size cover from thin sheet brass and glued it in place with cyano.

    At the front of the side tanks, I had overlooked the feed pipe from the injectors that runs to the top feed. At the rear I terminated the pipes after they ran behind the valance and forgot about the other end.

    Having given the loco a push through the curves on my brother's railway, I found that the front bogie wheel was fouling the feed pipe so I removed it and replaced with slightly a re-routed one that gives the required clearance. As I recall, Roger Scanlon had the same problem with his build.

    I think that's it detail wise, unless I decide to add the drain cock operating levers to the cab floor and some wood floor boards. I've gone with the sight feed glasses so I may well go the whole "Nick Dunhill" (or is that nine yards?).

    Some more pictures to look at.



    The real thing must have been an impressive beast and it's a great shame none were preserved

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  2. JohnFla

    JohnFla Western Thunderer

    Another Masterclass Peter, Beautiful modeling.
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  3. Dave Holt

    Dave Holt Western Thunderer

    I'll second that.
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  4. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    John, Dave,
    Many thanks.

    Something else I overlooked is the shaft from the hand brake to the crank on the brake rigging. This is 2500s which I'm assuming would be the same on the 2 cylinder versions.



    And my representation on the model. There should be an oil fed pipe to the brake shaft bearings either side and I'll add these later.

    The other end of the shaft is anchored to the frame with a short length of brass rod. 20190531_174730.jpg

    After making the crank, I had to cut a slot in the cross shaft with the cutting disc in the mini drill. After the crank was fitted I filled the gap with @ 1.5mm length of rod, soldered in place and cleaned up. For those of you with one of these kits in the cupboard, another detail not in the kit but better added earlier in the build.

    And a view from the side wit the bogie in place. 20190531_174713.jpg

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  5. Dave Holt

    Dave Holt Western Thunderer

    The arrangement is the same on the 2 cylinder engines, and on the Fairburn and even the earlier Fowler versions. A couple of minor points, if I may? The brake cross shaft should also have two levers facing forward, directly above the two pull rods, to connect to the steam brake cylinders. To be fair, these are barely visible behind the wheels, spring mounts and main frames. The other point is that the prototype photo shows the slotted link with the hand brake fully applied. In the running condition, the slotted end would be seen slightly beyond the crank arm.
    I came across this photo (scanned from a print) of my 4 mm version in a similar state (but not as clean) to yours, earlier today - hope you don't mind me showing it. Looking carefully, it looks like I done the same as you with the hand brake link. People in glass houses.......

    Last edited: 31 May 2019
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  6. Dave Holt

    Dave Holt Western Thunderer

    Just been pondering why on earth there would be two small steam brake cylinders rather than one, central larger one, like on most LMS locos. Now it has dawned. Looking at the GA and Pipe & Rod drawings for the Fowler tanks (Wild Swan Profile No. 3), there was a double ended water scoop and mechanism, right in the middle and filling up most of the gap between the rear coupled and front bogie wheels. I'm not sure if the Stanier engines actually had the scoop mechanism fitted below the foot plate, but they clearly had the domes fitted in the cab. I think any scoops fitted were later removed, but I'm not sure when. Hopefully, they'd gone by my period of mid to late 1950's.
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  7. paulc

    paulc Western Thunderer

    Hi Peter , maybe it should be called An Endee build ? Whatever this is a fantastic bit of work .
    Cheers Paul
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  8. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Paul,
    Sorry but the "Endee build" has passed right over my head, but many thanks for the compliment.

    You're absolutely correct on both points regarding the brake rigging. As to the position of the hand brake reach rod, I decided to go with the position as on 2500 on the basis that it would be correct when standing still, albeit with the brake blocks not touching the wheels.

    On the connections to the brake cylinders, they are as you say completely out of sight, but more importantly, there are no cylinders and if there were they would impede the gear wheel as it will be driven on the rear axle.

    Having said that, I have cocked up as I miss-interpreted the photos. Here's another one to clarify. 20190227_162013.jpg

    The crank to the pull rod and the crank to the hand brake are one integral casting, not separate as I have made it. Also the connection to the cylinder piston rod is integral with the same casting. On the left hand side there is of course no crank to the hand brake. This image shows the crank connected to the brake cylinder piston rod.

    Having said all that, I can live wit the error as the crank is only visible from the side and for me it passes muster. I've added a representation of the oil pipes to the cranks in the meantime.

    T'other side.

    I took my MOK 4MT to Doncaster and gave it a buzz around the test track pulling some carriages and on it's own. It ran well apart from on one of the corners where the front drivers tended to jump the rail. I need to look into that as it runs fine on my brother's railway and was fine on the circular test track at Keighley MRC,when I ran it there some weeks back. I also took the opportunity to push the big Stanier around the track and all seemed well with the pony truck and bogie. Next step is to get the motor and pick ups on and give a test "steaming". 20190531_225807.jpg

    Last edited: 2 June 2019
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  9. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Dave,
    No problem posting the photo of your 4mm model. If you have any more, please feel free to put them up, as like most folks on here, I love seeing quality models no matter what the scale. Who made the kit by the way?

    Thanks for the info on the water scoop pick up mech. My understanding and this is mentioned in the David Andrew's instructions, is that the scoops were fitted at building but removed in the 1940s, with the domes being left in place. Like you, my loco will be as running in the early to mid 50s, so no scoops.

    Had a good day out at Doncaster today, met several Western Thunderers and had some good crack with all of them. Saw some fabulous models on the technical committee stand by Nick Dunhill and Tony Geary and of course there is always something special on the Finney 7 stand. Those guys are so knowledgeable and approachable and are always willing to share info and techniques. With what you can do in 4mm, you should have a crack at 7mm, as you will amazed at how much easier it is to build in the larger scale.

  10. paulc

    paulc Western Thunderer

    Hi Peter , sorry I'll explain , EN as in N and DEE as in D or Nick Dunhills initials .
    I'll get back in my box now .
    Cheers Paul
  11. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Paul,
    Ah, the penny drops.

    Very kind of you to compare my work to Nick's, but he is completely mental and adds far more details than I would consider (apart from Bowden cables). He'll know what I mean by that if he reads this. :)):))

    Having said that, I am being influenced by the likes of Nick, Mickoo, Dikitriki and a few others on here and details I would not have added not so long ago are creeping into my builds. I'm still considering adding the wood planks and maybe some extra cab details, having plagiarised the magnet roof fixing, I can't use the excuse that the detail can't be seen, when it is so easy to lift the roof and replace it.

  12. Dave Holt

    Dave Holt Western Thunderer

    Hi Peter.
    Thanks for your kind invitation to post some more photos. I don't want to glog up your thread, so perhaps just on more.
    Stanier 2-6-4 tank 10006.jpg
    The kit was by Alan Gibson, although I might have replaced some of the valve gear or rods with items from the Comet Fowler 2-6-4 chassis kit. The Gibson kit was generally quite good, but there was a significant error in the height of the cab sides and spectacle plates. Unfortunately, I didn't spot this till I was about to fit the roof and it was quite a nerve wrecking exercise to reduce the height of both spectacles in situ. The mod has resulted in the roof having an incorrect profile, but at least the overall height is right. The body was painted and lined by Ian Rathbone.
    I must say, when I see the quality of builds by you and others named above, it is very tempting to have a go at something in 7 mm. However, my work rate is so slow, that if I get distracted from locos to run on my layout (if it ever gets finished), I'll never get anywhere with it; so I must resist.


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  13. dibateg

    dibateg Western Thunderer

    Thanks for your kind comments Peter - we like to try and help people as much as we can... The models were there to draw people to come and talk, and they did!

    Great to see the Stanier tank - inspiring!

    Last edited: 3 June 2019
  14. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    It was great to see you, however briefly, at Doncaster, Peter. (I was engaged in trying to drag people on to the F7 stand - someone has to do it - so couldn't take part in the conversation). However, and rather late, here are some prototype photos. I don't think they are in sufficient detail to be of any substantial assistance, but they certainly show how you've captured the spirit of the loco.

    42581.  Willesden Shed.  14 February 1965.  Personal Collection.  Final.  Photo Brian Dale.jpg
    42581. Willesden Shed. 14 February 1965.

    42583.  Willesden.  15 November 1964.  FINAL.  Revised Framing - Copy.jpg
    42583. Willesden. 15 November 1964.

    42583.  Willesden Shed.  15 November 1964.  FINAL.  Photo by Brian Dale - Copy.jpg

    42583. Willesden. 15 November 1964.

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  15. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Brian,
    It was nice to see you again also and it is a shame we weren't able to have a chat. Thanks for posting these views of the big Stanier tanks. They were emposing beasts weren't they. One thing that eludes me is the purpose of the grab rail on the valance just above the motion bracket. Do you have any idea as to what it was for?
  16. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Imposing they were for sure, Peter.

    I'd never questioned the use of that handrail! Sorry, can't help with that one.

  17. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    No worries Brian.
    Anybody else know the purpose of the grabrail?

    After chatting for so long with some of the detail freaks on here a Doncaster this weekend, I decided to try and keep up wit them. Yeah, I'm easily led. :(

    First the backhead. Having drilled some 2mm square perspex rod last week and drawn the diagonals onto some paper with a ruling pen, I put a smear of PVA on one face of each "glass" and place them face down on the paper. After leaving to dry I carefully cut around the parts with a scalpel and then fixed them to the castings with PVA. The one on the left has wicked some of the PVA so I'll wait till morning and see how it looks. I also added an extra valve and etched handwheel between the pipe from steam manifold to the brake. 20190603_224933.jpg

    In the cab I added some wood floorboards from veneer. It was too thick to start with so I sanded a small piece down from @ 0.9mm to @ 0.5mm, before cutting the boards and fixing them in place with super glue.

    Another addition is the cylinder drain cock operating levers to the floor either side of the cab.

    T'other side.

    There are a couple of oilpots that I can add to complete the detailing, but from what I can tell from the photos I took of 2500, it will still on.y be a representation of what is in the cab.
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  18. Dave Holt

    Dave Holt Western Thunderer

    Your gauge glasses look very convincing. The hole down the middle really looks like a gauge glass.
    The floor mounted levers you've added are most likely the damper controls. The cylinder drain cock would normally be on the cab side, somewhere behind the reverser. Not sure how it would get past the tank, though.
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  19. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    On 2500, this red painted gizmo is behind the reverser. Any idea what it is?


    After the PVA dried, it doesn't show where it wicked down the hole in the glass. I've drilled that spare flange on the right and solder some rod into the hole, as on the prototype it is blanked off.

    I didn't have any 2 feed oilpots so I knocked some up from square brass rod. I overdid the solder on the third from left so has to take out the pipes and refit.

    There's one on the back face of each tank and one either side under the crew seats.

    On the right in front of the seat I've added another hand wheel, that is on 2500. I'm assuming it was on the 2 cylinder locos also.

    Here you can see the oilpot below the fireman's seat.

    And under the driver's seat. On 2500 the frames protrude into the cab, so I'll add a representation of these before calling it a draw on the cab detail

    And a peak through the cab lookout.

  20. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    A couple of years ago at the Doncaster show I was showing someone the intricacies of the underside and inside of the W1 frames, he remarked, 'oh I don't bother with any details you cant see when it's on the track'.

    In said persons hand was an L1, lovely model and true to his word superb details when stood on the track and viewed from gods eye angles.

    I did jest that one day he would....having seen the W1....begin to model hidden or barely visible details.

    Fast forward two years and said same person was holding with pride (rightly so) a Stanier tank, I'm sure I don't need to expand further on the advancing level of detail, seen, partial or hidden between the two over the last two years.

    Personally, it matters not whether the detail can be seen or not, the only thing that matters is that one enjoyed the journey.

    Anyway, I'm sure we all know who I'm talking about ;) keep up the good work, it looks good here and even better in the flesh.
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