Etched coach kit manufacturer preferences.

Scale7JB

Western Thunderer
Hi all..

Just after a bit of personal preference really..

I think it's Kemilway that everyone rates so highly when it comes to etched coach kits, but what are your favorites, and why would that be?

Ease of build?
Accuracy of the kit?
Quality of the etches/castings?
Amount of detail versus time it takes to build them...? Etc...

Any thoughts would be greatly received...

I'm looking to draw up some coaches in cad soon, and it would be great to know the highs and lows of other manufacturers..

Thanks,

JB.
 

7mmMick

Western Thunderer
I'm not a wealth of knowlege on this mate as I haven't built that many but for me the level of detail always gets me. Not bothered about the build time or how difficult, just the level of detail and quality. What are you planning on drawing up ( please be LNER based please be LNER based :)):thumbs: )

ATB Mick
 

Rob Pulham

Western Thunderer
Thanks mate, either Quad and/or Quint-arts...!

JB.

They sound good, I have just ordered etches for a the LNER restaurant triplet set from CPL.
In terms of preference the Kemilways are excellent, I also have in the stash a Newbould LNER Buffet car which looks pretty good too along with some Sidelines LMS stock which also look to be pretty good. I would like to try some of their LNER stock but I believe that they are all Thompsons? So really a bit late for me.

On the not too sure until I build them front are the Howlden triplet set from Medley Models which basically come as sides/ends and resin roofs. They did come with some strips of hardboard for the floors but In intend to replace them with some nickel sheet. On the plus side they are etched in nickel.

On the face of it the Kemilway coaches seem expensive but when you look at the cost of Bill Bedford coaches which are just sides/ends and a bit of detail you can soon leave Kemilway's behind when buying all the bits that you need to finish Bill's kits to a reasonable standard. Offset against that is the range of prototypes offered.
 
S

SteveO

Guest
No specific prototype requests here, but is there a better way of fixing the roof on without using bolts through the floor?
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Steve,
Many other ways, yes! Screws through the corridor ends, bayonet fittings, etc. Or do what I do and fix the roof to the sides and ends, make the floor removable. It gives a much stronger carriage and makes painting easier...
Steph
 

Scale7JB

Western Thunderer
All good feedback, thanks...

So how much of an issue is cost? We all know that carriage kits are expensive because of the amount of brass involved..

Would a reasonable kit at a good price be preferable to a top end kit at stupid prices?

JB.
 

Rob Pulham

Western Thunderer
All good feedback, thanks...

So how much of an issue is cost? We all know that carriage kits are expensive because of the amount of brass involved..

Would a reasonable kit at a good price be preferable to a top end kit at stupid prices?

JB.


It would to me:thumbs:
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
Cost is a knotty problem.

There are those who will pay anything to get the kit because they want it. There are those who just need a train of coaches, and prefer to pay as little as possible. It all comes down to value, I suppose.

I, personally, not being a kit manufacturer, can't work out how the MMP range of kits can be cost effective for the manufacturer. There's a lot of kit in the box, all top quality, yet the price is incredibly good. Even a JLTRT kit is fairly good value for money, yet between the two is quite a margin.

I suppose you have to work out the cost of your time in designing the kit, making the masters for castings, getting the metal bits made, and still making a profit without frightening away many potential purchasers!

Knotty problem.
 

Ressaldar

Western Thunderer
Hi JB,

for my two pennyworth, Sidelines kits are the best ones that I have come across - they score very highly on all of your bullet points.

Would a reasonable kit at a good price be preferable to a top end kit at stupid prices?JB.


and I echo Rob's reply:thumbs::thumbs:

cheers

Mike
 
S

SteveO

Guest
Would a reasonable kit at a good price be preferable to a top end kit at stupid prices?
JB.

In marketing terms that is a predetermined and leading question... A better phrase would be "at a suitable or reflective price point".

Cost is always going to be an issue – it's either a design factor or a summation of the work involved and/or accuracy of the finished product.
 

Dikitriki

Flying Squad
Hi JB

I really like the Sidelines approach. In fact I think his spec is spot on.

Aluminium roof - pre-formed to the right profile
Brass sides and ends. Brass frets for detail plate work
Aluminium floor pan and solebars with etched overlays.
Brass bogie with quality whitemetal sideframes
Detail parts mostly in quality cast brass.

To improve Sidelines spec, I would add:
Turned steel buffers
Etched/material corridor connections (where relevant)

Whatever they cost seems about right.

Richard
 

Scale7JB

Western Thunderer
Thanks again everyone...

The pre-formed roof is a must I think, just where to get it done.. Hmmm

Looking at the sidelines kits you're looking at an average of around £150 a coach, so would £500 for a quad, and £600 for a quint be restrictive? Like Heather says, these things are subjective to who wants what... Prices are off the top of the head of course..

JB.
 

7mmMick

Western Thunderer
Just had to have a quick read up on Quad sets, it looks like they did see use on summer east coast traffic. That's me with an excuse then :thumbs:

ATB Mick
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
So a twin set might be on the cards then? :) :thumbs:

Have you given any thought to those Fox pattern pressed bogies which were the subject of an earlier discussion here?
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
JB,
There are, I think, 3 roof sections which have been produced as aluminium extrusions, so it may be worth trying to get hold of representative pieces to try.
If they don't work I'd then have a look at vac-forms; Peter Cowling does a few and if you etched up a frame to stick it to you'd soon have a very strong, stable roof. There are extruded/moulded styrene roofs available from a few sources too; Slater's and Easybuild come to mind. My very last choice would be brass or other sheet metal, it's a complete pain to form consistently and always looks too thin; even a shaped wood moulding would be better...
Pricing of carriages is pretty interesting; my Dad has built Kirk coaches with all the details added as after-market parts; he reckons a Sidelines coach kit may be cheaper in the long run. Certainly if you compare current best practice (e.g. Slater's Maunsell stock, Sidelines, MMP, etc) they're all pretty similar in terms of price.
Just a thought, but for a timber vehicle isn't it worth looking at materials other than etched brass? I can't see how you'd form the variety of sections and beadings in such a medium. To me at least brass always looks too thin for a timber-framed vehicle*. Perhaps resin might be worth a thought, like the Sparmac (sp?) kits?

Tony,
In terms of bogies there are good Fox pattern bogies from Newbold or Kemilway (Rob P has built some), although I admit they're not correct for all vehicles so equipped; there were considerable variations in brakegear.

Steph

*One reason I'm sticking with scratchbuilding the vast majority of my passenger carriages
 

djparkins

Western Thunderer
I, personally, not being a kit manufacturer, can't work out how the MMP range of kits can be cost effective for the manufacturer. There's a lot of kit in the box, all top quality, yet the price is incredibly good. Even a JLTRT kit is fairly good value for money, yet between the two is quite a margin.

Heather - you must seen some of my previous postings.

As I have tried to explain several times on here these kits are lower in price, relative to what you get in the box, than most other railway kits because they are susidised by our military ranges. Remember too that they also include VAT @20%, unlike most of the part-time manufacturers that are not VAT registered.

We pay prices for much of our input material that most of you could only dream about and that economy of scale can only come from a large enough number of products over four ranges. As an example, we spend around £300 a week on postage and between £500-700 a`month just on printing of instructions & labels. This throughput enables you to haggle with suppliers to get better prices and SOME of these savings we pass on!

However we are not a charity and I am a mercenary sod! - so I can assure you that we have set minimum mark ups for ALL our products and that is absolutely sactosanct! We never deviate from that otherwise it becomes impossible for full time kit manufacturer to live with any degree of luxury!

As I see it, cutting input costs is the duty of a manufacturer. An example is the 100gsm paper we use for our instructions. When we need another batch I decide on the sort of price I am willing to pay and I just find someone who will supply it within, say, 5-10% of that price. I may have to buy a lot of it to cut the deal but then they in turn, want a large order.

Where we might deviate from the some railway kit makers is that we do not say 'that would be a nice kit to produce at any cost because I want one'. We decide on what we think the punters will pay. Then we have to produce it to a good quality to sell at that price but without affecting the percentage mark up we require. That is the juggling act that is helped by the advantageous prices we pay for some of our inputs. If our prices seem low to you then you can thank the modellers who add metal to their Lancasters, Tornadoes and Flower Class Corvettes.

I have been around long enough to have seen many traders come and go. I've seen the ones who produce one or two kits and then turn up at Telford [or Bletchley, when I used to do shows] and sell a kit or two and then dance a jig of delight around their stands. But that is not being a manufacturer and it does not put them in profit. The profit bit is the difficult bit!

To turn your posting around a little - your post says that you also think another manufacturers kits are fairly good value - now that I cannot understand and your assessment seems to be to be based on very different economics and a 'perceived value' to that which I understand!

Regards,

DJP/MMP
 

djparkins

Western Thunderer
Hi all..

Just after a bit of personal preference really..

I think it's Kemilway that everyone rates so highly when it comes to etched coach kits, but what are your favorites, and why would that be?

Ease of build?
Accuracy of the kit?
Quality of the etches/castings?
Amount of detail versus time it takes to build them...? Etc...

Any thoughts would be greatly received...

I'm looking to draw up some coaches in cad soon, and it would be great to know the highs and lows of other manufacturers..

Thanks,

JB.

To that I would also add -

A detachable underframe with all the u/f structure included. Even Kemilway falls down here! At present I can only get this via my own Mk.1 kits but I would like that too in kits of the pre-nationalisation types.

I would be interested in buying a Quad-Art. Set/s if you do get to produce them!

Regards,

DJP/MMP
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Following on from Steph's comments above I've indeed been very successful with Ian Kirk coaches. They are very inexpensive and easy to build as designed. They also produce a nice looking vehicle and if you want a set of coaches for little cost are worth considering. The only additional items which are a must are the wheels and couplings and I'd have thought that these coaches would be good as designed for a garden railway. However........

If you want to super detail the cost will escalate quite fast. I actually usually use the Kirk bogies (some of which can be built compensated) but you may want to consider an alternative. That's an additional ££££s. Then there's the roof vents, corridor connections, sprung buffers, underframe and brake detailing, door handles, handrails, couplings, vacuum and heating pipes, glazing and interior detail. I'm sure I've missed stuff! Some of the mouldings are a bit generic too and you may want to add footsteps and other refinements.

I'm a great enthusiast for Ian Kirk's coaches as I've now built four very succesfully and they do exactly what they say on the tin. I particularly like them because you can add detail to suit yourself, and if you don't want to go for super detail you don't need to.

Are they quicker to build than alternatives? Probably yes if built simply as designed but no if you source additional parts and then identify correct locations and fit them. Are they less expensive than alternatives? They can be, but again probably not if all the extra bits are purchased.

However, the question on this thread is asking for preferences. Mine would be for an easily built and accurate basic body and chassis with the option and suggestions for additional parts and appropriate suppliers for additional detailing - or perhaps an optional detailing pack. Construction materials are less important for me although I prefer building in brass despite my enthusiasm for Ian's products, but that's a personal preference and plastic would be a preference for some who have a problem with soldering.

Following are photos of three of my Ian Kirk builds - one set is of various details of an LNER parcels/pigeon van. They may, possibly, help to demonstrate what I'm talking about.

Brian100_0547.JPG

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LNERGER 54ft Full Brake (1).JPG

LNERGER 54ft Full Brake (2).JPG

LNERGER 54ft Full Brake (3).JPG

LNERGER 54ft Full Brake (4).JPG

LNERGER 54ft Full Brake (5).JPG

LNERGER 54ft Full Brake (6).JPG

LNERGER 54ft Full Brake.JPG
 
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