German Modelling

Discussion in 'Area 51' started by Dikitriki, 9 July 2015.

  1. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad


    The great advantage of doing something entirely new with a different philosophy is the opportunity to have fun. Part of that is that I can go where I want to rather than think about period or livery or region as is necessary with Heyside. I'm still thinking about the how of the garden railway, but for sure I will need something to run, and this has appeared.



    As far as I can tell, it's not been run, just been on display. It has suffered some knocks over the years, so I have a bit of repair work and scratchbuilding ahead of me. I have already repaired the right hand side deflector where the deflector had parted company with the footboard mounting bracket, and written to Marklin to see if I can get hold of a few spares.

    It is a Marklin BR 44 in early condition, and the engine alone weighs a whopping 12 lbs. Roger has lent me a book on the 44s so I can see what else I want to do to the model, but in truth, it's a pretty decent effort, and needs weathering more than anything else. Some of the plastic components strike me as being very vulnerable given the weight of the loco, and the difficulty in handling it. It wont be the only German loco on the line by any means, and I'm quite excited by the prospect of doing something different.

  2. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Sometimes, not often, you can be a real cad :cool:

    What an awesome piece of kit, I did see a live steam DB steamer on Ebay recently, fairly sure it wasn't a 44 or 50 possibly a 41, but, close as I wanted to grab it decided that that interest bubble would have to wait a few years, of course if it'd of been a 23 then that would have been a lost cause or a DR 01.5

    For information I fully recommend the EK Verlag series of books, I'm sure they do, have done, the 44 series, not cheap and all German text but very very concise, I've only managed a single steamer one in the collection, 42.90 - 50-40 but have quite a few diesel and electric ones.

    EJ also do a very good magazine series specialising in specific classes and EJ Sonderausgabe 1988-03 Baureihe 44 is the one you need :thumbs:

    I refuse to get drawn into DB railways, your making it very hard for me to resist, but please feel free to carry on :cool:

    All the best

  3. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Richard, I shan't ever forgive you for this opening can of worms :D

    Did some digging and I think you have an early version with full deflectors, can't find much information on these and I think the deflectors went to the smaller type quite quickly, probably just after the war. Some kept the sloping front footplate, mostly DR (East German) but some DB kept them until quite late.

    44 675b.jpg

    I'm also stumped by the DB lettering on the cab side, that'd make it almost certainly post war and there can't be many with full deflectors after the war, Steph might be able to fill in more details with Epochs etc. On the stencils will be the depot, BW..... something or other, I'd love to know what that is please, anything from North Germany, Osnabruck, Hamburg, Bremerhaven, Hannover, Flensburg ticks all my boxes. In the configuration you have I'd of expected DR with the Eagle, though that....for obvious reasons...might be a bit contentious.

    By sheer luck I have in my collection an image of your loco, but much later in it's life, it's had the front footplate cut away and the smaller deflectors fitted and it's still in DB hands and although I have no date or location will speculate it's mid/northern Germany and mid 60s, the (I think) D Zug 'Silver Fish' stock on the right will almost certainly have a/V160 on the front.

    044 670-8.jpg

    A 'very' quick web surf produces
    044 670-8_Koblenz.jpg
    At Koblenz depot, and

    044 670-8 Mosel 70.jpg

    Mosel valley Aug 72.

    Both of which discount a Northern Germany based loco, certainly by that date.

  4. Steph Dale

    Steph Dale Western Thunderer

    Mick, Richard,

    Your reference shots are all late Ep III or early Ep IV; the use of the DB Keks (Biscuit) logo on the cab side shows this. Earlier in EpIII the full 'Deutsche Bundesbahn' lettering was used. And the large smoke deflectors reflect that the process of going from the original condition to the use of the small Witte smoke deflectors was a gradual process. They'd be very unusual in EpIV...

    The tender is less of a surprise, both post-war administrations seemed to go through a process of tender swapping which saw most BR44s end up with the all-welded 2'2'T34 tender (2'2' = 2x 2axle bogies, T=standard tender, 34=34 cubic metre water capacity). Mick's top photo is of the earlier 2'2'T32 tender (in practise a post 1934 build or rebuild as it's got a welded coal bunker and roller-bearing axleboxes).

    So, Richard, your loco is fine for (say) 1949-1968 from the period the two railways formally split along East/West lines, through to the use of computer numbering (look for the '-#' on the end of the loco's running number; this is the computer 'check digit'), which came in 1968 for DB and (in practice) a year later in the East.

    Just note that operationally the BR44 is a dedicated heavy freight loco. Use on passenger trains required specific approval and use hauling any train tender first gave a severe speed restriction so was rarely done. Despite the bottom photo showing the loco at the head of what looks like a general merchandise train, even that's relatively unusual I would think (unless in a mountainous area; that photo could be the Mosel or Eiffel) - a rake of around 20 ErzIIId (or similar) high-capacity coal or ore hoppers would be rather more appropriate. And weathering should be applied accordingly; the locos were filthy in most of the photos I've found. Even the paint was rather more like bitumen than paint and so grot would become ingrained and impossible to remove after a short while.

    Is the loco live steam? I thought Maerklin only did electric, but if it isn't live steam there's something spectacularly awry around the cylinders and valve gear. No middle cylinder? Aah; I've just got my eye in and it's got some other problems too...

    Nice loco, although I suspect that eventually I'd get the better of myself and it would find itself in mid-70s East German oil-burning condition! I do have a soft spot for the 'Jumbo' (with the 'J' pronounced 'Y'), my DR oil-burner in P87 remains unfinished since I switched to 0 gauge. One day...

    3 LINK, Len Cattley, Dog Star and 2 others like this.
  5. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad

    Hello Mick, Steph,

    Thank you both for the information.

    As Steph twigged, the loco is live steam and G1. Marklin did a very limited run of 2 classes of live steam locos - the other was a Bavarian pacific IIRC. This accounts for the wholly incorrect looking cylinders and the safety valve on the firebox. The loco is fitted with R/C. I an mulling over whether I can fabricate a clip on cylinder cover to include a front valve cover and steam pipe. For obvious reasons, I am stuck with the front cylinder cover, though it may be possible to add the tail rod cover. Don't want to drill too many holes though:).

    Mick - Bw Altenhundem

    I do like the idea of 20 or so high capacity hoppers - that's after the lottery win.


  6. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Whilst I only skirt the fringes, it's relaxing to have an 'expert' fill in the gaps ;) :thumbs:

    My DB reference material being locked away for a few years now but not as in depth as yours, especially steamers.

    When did the biscuit logo come into force, I thought it was before 68 which pushes Richards model back a few years as well as the large (Wagner) deflectors.

    Like Steph, I'd be itching to bring it forward with split running boards and Witte deflectors, though give the price of such an item, it'd not be a task I'd take on lightly and it'd probably devalue it but make it more individual.

    Looking at the cylinders and safety valve I'd take it as live steam, in which case, for me, authentic finer details are forgiven as the 'presence' is filled by it being live steam. Did the 44's go to oil, I can't find one photo with an oil tender, I'd be surprised if they didn't but have no photos to confirm.

    All the best

  7. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    I'm with you on the hoppers, Fals or some of the six axle Faals, Falrrs might be too modern, but would suit my (long planned) Br150 very well.

    Bw Altenhundem, bit too far south for my interests ;) but close enough to the Rhur to possibly not be renumbered...if it were mine:D

    All said and done, it's German and that covers a great many sins in my eyes and whilst imperfect in a few areas, I'm told these little niggles soon disappear once it's up and running.

    I still regret walking past a Maerklin E103 and DB200.1 at Warley a few years back on offer at stupid prices and I've just seen that Heljan are supposed to be bringing out a DSB Nohab My in Spur 1 this year :eek:
  8. Steph Dale

    Steph Dale Western Thunderer

    I'm not sure when DB started using the Keks (I'm more interested in DR than DB and in the 70s rather than 60s), which is why I wasn't too specific on dates. Many of the earlier diesels (e.g. V80, V200.0) arrived on the scene without the Keks, but the V160 had them from new in 1960, which would narrow down the BR44 to 1949-60(ish).

    The DR oil burners (yes, both DB and DR had oil-burning 44s) retained their aprons when converted to oil burning although they did lose the centre section over the middle cylinder. The pumps were enlarged and lowered and Witte-style deflectors fitted, just they were curvier than the DB versions. There were numerous other variations and they got many Reko fittings in their later lives, many having all-welded Ersatzkessel (replacement boilers, indicated by not having the forward feed dome and the firebox inspection covers are in different places) and the absolutely amazing (technologically-speaking) Max Baumberg-designed all-welded cylinders. Some even got new frames.

    The DR also had a number that were fully refurbished and fueled with coal dust, again it's amazing technology but the locos were unpleasant to work, weathered way beyond the 'indescribably filthy' state and finally given up on after a particularly nasty fire. It may serve to remember that coal dust was the original fuel of early diesel engines.

    Hardly an expert, although certainly my 'thing'... :)

    allegheny1600 likes this.
  9. Steph Dale

    Steph Dale Western Thunderer

    Haha, as a small aside, I've just been looking for info on various DR locos and tenders.
    Embarrassingly, the top hits seem to be on my website... :oops:

    I've also been reminded of a number of 1:35 rolling stock kits. The scale difference won't be massively obvious, and they may provide enough to get you going. These don't even seem all that expensive; the two G-wagen look lovely. Dragon, Trumpeter and one of the Czech resin kit manufacturers (CMK?) also do some interesting stuff, although most has a military flavour. Some vehicles are undoubtedly fiction though, so some care would be required.

  10. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    I had a mate who worked in the coal mines, Easington to be specific, he was an incredibly 'solid' bloke, but he often spoke of the raw fear miners had of coal dust and they wetted down the face almost constantly and the conveyors too. At the right mixture it's explosive, actually so is flour dust so the miners went to great lengths to ensure the right mixture never happened. Ironically on the Post Office where we worked it was found that paper dust from the sorting machines could flare up, I never saw it but did hear from the London guys at college that they had a conflagration in the Mount Pleasant Sorting Office once, the belts that transported the letters could certainly build up a big static charge which could give you a wallop if you didn't earth them before touching them :eek: I had a few of those ;)

    Back on topic, the Germans were way ahead of a lot of people with steam innovation and science, granted they had longer to perfect it than we did in the UK, crying shame Tornados boiler had to be built in Germany.

    I did manage to get to the Eastern Block in 82 and managed a few grabbed shots of working steam from the coach window as we sped west out from Berlin, back then cameras in the Eastern block were seriously frowned upon and there were four armed guards per coach on our train. We were confined to the compartment and the doors locked from the time we left Berlin to our arrival in the west, but, before we left the East they brought dogs onto the train and searched it from top to bottom, even the toilet water tank compartments in the roof. I'll have to dig out my old 35mm shots form that trip, clear forgot about them until just now. I can still hear the Ludmilla up front, jeez, it made HST's sound like a Nissan Leaf and the smoke made Deltics look tame, but it didn't just smoke on acceleration, it did it all the way, must have been burning potato diesel or some such derivative!

    All the best

    allegheny1600 likes this.
  11. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    No no no, those are not good enough, Richard needs some Reich eagles and a Leopold to tow along ;) does anyone do a 1:35 Leopold as a kit, I though Dragon did one at one stage, I'm sure I've seen some, though probably scratch built and fairly static, but a Leopold with associated Flak wagons and staff coach would be a talking point. Having said that, the 44 might be too heavy so a lighter Kriegslok 52 would be more prototypical I think.

    Addendum, just seen Trumpeter do one, now that would be a nice left field project :thumbs:
  12. Steph Dale

    Steph Dale Western Thunderer

    Yeah well, if you want a modern steam loco boiler who are you going to get to build it for you; Meiningen of course. Who else could.

    I had one of those 'oh' moments a few years back when over in the Mosel for the German Railways 150th. Standing on Trier station as a DB BR23 departed two things struck me. Firstly how it didn't seem to matter how much coal was heaped on combustion seemed to be complete at the chimney and secondly the blast must have been a near-perfect venturi of amazing efficiency; I kid you not it made the clouds shake!

    Mind you the noise of the idling oil-burning BR41 was something else - it made parts of me resonate that I didn't even know I had...

    Last edited: 9 July 2015
  13. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Know what you mean about oil burners, I first noted it on the Vale of Rheidol tanks, a sort of deep drumming noise, must be more impressive on a big boiler :cool:

    Well this little foray has erased all I planned for this evening :eek:
  14. Scanlon

    Scanlon Western Thunderer

    Hi Mickoo, Steph, Richard et al,
    The photo of Richard's Br (Class) 44 has stimulated quite a number of interesting points. For the record I have been "spotting" DB steam from 1965 and DR from 1976 and have a number of German rail enthusiast friends who frequently put me right on detail etc., so let me see if I can shed more light onto them.

    The DB Keks logo was in use from 1955 on steam locos. The Class 23 locos built by Jung and delivered in 1955 (23 053-064) had three Keks plates, one on each cabside and one on the smokebox door but by 1965 the smokebox door plates were removed. Here is a photo of 01 1100 in 1957
    Lettering on DB cabsides was tidied up from early on but Richard's machine reflects the earlier style. Also the numberplates have the old font from DRG (pre war) days. Many locos carried this style of font up until the computer renumbering in 1968/9. However other font styles were used. EK produced a very useful paperback on the subject of fonts and the many different plates which adorned German locos, unfortunately I've mislaid my copy!
    The large deflectors were quite speedily removed by the DB and the smaller Witte deflectors replaced them. The big deflectors hindered maintenance on the water feed pump and air pumps both of which were located in insets at the front of the smokebox. To aid maintenance both items were moved to the middle of the running plates although it should be noted many of the class built in the war had at least the air pump in the new location, no deflectors and only one side window on each cabside.

    But to return to Richard's original posting, the German theme is expanding
    do you want to see more?
  15. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    What! :eek: of course man :thumbs:, can't speak for others but anything German is very welcome, perhaps a broader German thread for all to get involved with, rather than dilute Richards thread further ;)

    All the best

  16. Scanlon

    Scanlon Western Thunderer

    OK, so as not to hijack this thread I've created in Area 51 a new thread entitled German Gauge 1 Modelling. This might not be the appropriate place so if our masters wish to move elsewhere it please do.

  17. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

    Seems fine to me - new content is great to see especially something different.
  18. Scanlon

    Scanlon Western Thunderer

    OK, some of you want to see more of 01 181 but please bear with me for a while.

    Ever since I saw my first German loco at Rheine, probably an 01.10 or was it a 41, 44 or 50 I've been hooked. I determined from then onwards to build an HO German layout and eventually had a layout on which the loco shed had allocation of 41 machines. Then the O gauge bug bit! However I also have a passion for Dutch railways remembering steam, just!

    So whenever I'm in The Netherlands I always trawl the model shops to see if my HO collection of NS stock can be enhanced. In Utrecht there are two model shops almost opposite each other in the Minrebroederstraat. Last May I wandered across the street to the Märklin shop which always has had a fair number of offerings in Gauge 1. However it was not the wares from that firm that stopped me in my tracks. It was the sight of a magnificent model of 01 227, a rebuilt 01 pacific. Immediately I decided I had to have one, only to be told this model was sold and according to the shop staff there were none at the factory. Which model maker had produced this wonder, KM1 Modellbau.

    On my return home I looked up their website and instantly became a child in a very, very, very expensive sweet shop! The rebuilt 01 was still available so off went an email to enquire if it was possible to order a loco with a different set of numberplates and allocation plates. A very speedy reply in the affirmative has resulted in this magnificent model


    This is a ready to run model, fully DCC fitted with the highest specification and the loco and tender weight over 7kg and is 75cm long. So far I have not been able to run the model as the track has not arrived , I only ordered it today! Still to fit are cylinder tail rods, cylinder relief valves, fly screen windows and a few other minor items.

    If anyone is enticed to go and buy a model from this manufacturer you need have no worries about delivery. The model was so well packed my wheelie bin could not cope with the discarded packing material. Here are some of the boxes
    So why 01 181, well it was on one of these locos I had my first footplate ride in Germany and when I went up to Hof in North East Bavaria 01 181 was the first pacific from Hof shed I rode behind. She remained a firm favourite but like most other steam locos met her end in a scrapyard. Her sister 01 180 has just been restored and based at Nordlingen.

    Now I have to buy a train to put behind the tender! Am I tempted to buy another loco, probably. Can I afford it, no. Will I weaken, probably.

    Does any other Thunderer own a KM1 model?

  19. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad

    The 01 is absolutely magnificent. I think there is a finesse to the KM1 01 that is lacking on the Marklin 44, but then the 44 is an older model and live steam too which brings inevitable compromises. A good weathering and some cylinder work will go a long way to improve it. The 01 is all round a bigger loco, but the 2 together on my specially reinforced kitchen table looked fantastic.

    It's quite hard to get over the sheer size of G1. But then I probably said that of O gauge when I moved up from 4mm scale:). No doubt I will say the same of G3!

    I have moved the discussion on my 44 here to keep at the German G1 together.

  20. Simon

    Simon Flying Squad


    Are these the models with the comprehensive smoke effects?

    And dare I ask what the wheel back to back measurements are?