Glass works

[Dave]

Afternoon, peeps.

I don't know which section to post this in but as it's about possibly building another layout it may as well be in here.

Now I don't usually read the frothfests news on the other place but I wandered into a thread about Bachmann/Farish developments and found that they are to produce a Covhop in 4mm.

A Judith Edge Ruston 48DS is currently being built for me to EM gauge by Halfwit Paul, and I don't want it simply to sit in a cabinet - it needs to be run.

With the Covhop, I can build a small layout based around a glassworks in the late 1960s/early 1970s.
So, with the sand arriving in Covhops, what, if any, other inward traffic could be seen at a glassworks?

 

[Steve C]

Hi Dave,

It wasn't only sand that was conveyed in such vehicles - soda ash would have also found its way in Covhops. The other main material would have been Lime but I've not yet found out what vehicle types were used for this, if indeed it was conveyed by rail.
For a bit of variance then Dia 1/071/72/73 Sand Tipplers could be used for sand (these were produced in 4mm kit form by Parkside Dundas on behalf of Red Panda) or if you fancy something a little more exotic there's Dia 1/274 & Dia 1/277
'Prestwin' (Ex Airfix, now Dapol). I've never built one of these but if you do beware - Dia 1/274 had a 10' 6" wheelbase whilst Dia 1/277 were a 12' wheelbase and I'm not sure which the kit represents.

For finished traffic such as palletised food containers (bottles, jars etc) then I would suggest a 'Shoc-Van' type (Dia 1/218 'Vanwide' might fit the bill) or there's the opportunity to go for a larger airbrake type such as a VDA etc (not my area of interest unfortunately).
For sheet glass, the LNER, LMS & GWR got in on the act and built specialist wagons for it but I think the most prolific 'small' type was the LMS 'Glass MD' which became BR Dia 2/171 - unfortunatley I think there is only a 7mm kit available so another on my list for the scratch built route to wagon fulfillment...

Regards, Steve

 

[Dave]

Thanks, Steve.

What about the fuel for the kilns (or whatever they're called) to melt the sand etc. I imagine it's natural gas nowadays but would it have been town gas or coal in the 60s?

 

[iploffy]

Could have been Coke, hauled into the Glass works in 16ton minerals

 

[Osgood]

Now - there could be a good connection between Bury Thorn & Sons and your glass works!

The St.Helens chemical industry, which grew up alongside the glass industry there, was producing carbonate of soda for soap manufacture. A by product of this process was soda ash, which as mentioned above was a constituent of the glass process. Another by product was hydrochloric acid used much in the manufacture of bleaching powder. Raw materials were salt and coal.

I know - I read it in a book

Industrial Railways of St.Helens, Widnes and Warrington Pt 1 - St.Helens, by Townley and Peden - published by IRS.

Methinks some re-working of a few tank wagons and a combined layout could be in the offing.......
Edit - mind you, if I'd read the first post properly I'd have realised the incompatibility in scale

 

[Steve C]

What about the fuel for the kilns (or whatever they're called) to melt the sand etc. I imagine it's natural gas nowadays but would it have been town gas or coal in the 60s?

I don't think kilns at this time were fuelled by coal or coke due to them being relatively dirty fuels - far more likely for them to be powered using electricity or gas which were clean and would also allow more precise control of the kiln environment.

Regards, Steve

 

[Dog Star]

Could have been Coke, hauled into the Glass works in 16ton minerals

Since when has Coke been shippped in anything other than plastic bottles?

Seriously - coke is much more acidic than coal and hence promotes corrosion of steel panels at a greater rate than best nutty slack. If coke was being moved by rail in the 1950s, what would have been the typical vehicle for such traffic?

regards, Graham

 

[Steve C]

Seriously - coke is much more acidic than coal and hence promote corrosion of steel panels at a greater rate than best nutty slack. If coke was being moved by rail in the 1950s, what would have been the typical vehicle for such traffic?

The biggest fleets for movement of coke were supplied to cater for traffic between the industrial heartlands of the UK and the coking plants, found adjacent to the coalfields. These vehicles pretty much all took the form of hopper wagons equipped with side & end raves (as coke is lighter than coal more of it could be carried but this required a larger volume).

As usual Paul Bartlett's website is the place to visit for detailed examples:

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brcoke

Coke was also used as a source of fuel domestically which I think probably would have been catered for using standard 16T minerals.

Regards, Steve

 

[Dog Star]

So 16T steel minerals for any incoming coal... and 21T / 24T hoppers for the coke?

 

[mickoo]

I don't think kilns at this time were fuelled by coal or coke due to them being relatively dirty fuels - far more likely for them to be powered using electricity or gas which were clean and would also allow more precise control of the kiln environment.

Regards, Steve

Maybe not, vast amounts of Coke was still being moved by rail in the late 70s so it had to be going somewhere and probably to industry, whilst researching Woodhead trains there were still quite a few Coke trains in Vac only wagons (hence the retention of Vac only 76s right upto the end) transiting across the Pennines, most via Wath and Mexborough. There are probably other areas in the country where these trains ran, have a mind that the Tyneside area had Coke trains very late on with 37 haulage but that area is outside my immediate interest area. I've a super book (one of a four part series) that deals with basically diesel hauled freight, one is on Coal/Coke, another on Containers another on Wagonload and the last on Bulk freight, Stone/ Sand/ Steel might be in this one? etc, highly recommended if your modeling freight trains from the late 1960s to late 1980s etc. Google Rail Freight since 1968 by Paul Shannon.

Graham, correct but you won't get 24T of Coke in a 24T hopper, as noted above Coke is lighter so you use a larger wagon to get your volume.

And as if by magic Class 76 on Coke train in 1980 and empties back additional Flickr here at Darnall with Class 37 in 1983 and a St Helens sand train at Broadbottom

So lot of Coke still going by rail in the early 80s, where I've no idea but I'd put a wager on industires still using Coke at that date, so you could justify running on your layout.

And now you've let my Woodhead Genie right out of the bottle (had only cracked it open for a snifter), I hold you fully responsible for all my future actions LOL

 

[Steve C]

Maybe not, vast amounts of Coke was still being moved by rail in the late 70s so it had to be going somewhere and probably to industry..

Hi Mick,

I'm not saying that there weren't such workings, only that the glass manufacturers had probably gone over to using gas or electricity. A lot of the process is run on a continous basis (kilns are kept hot) so it would have required an almost constant stream of coke deliveries - gas or electricity however were on hand 24/7.

Regards, Steve

 

[mickoo]

Hi Mick,

I'm not saying that there weren't such workings, only that the glass manufacturers had probably gone over to using gas or electricity. A lot of the process is run on a continous basis (kilns are kept hot) so it would have required an almost constant stream of coke deliveries - gas or electricity however were on hand 24/7.

Regards, Steve

Quite true, I'll have to look in the book when I get home I think it gives sample trains so the destinations might give a clue as to what industries were still using Coke at that date.

Just been reading up on basic glass production and 'apparently' you need to add some form of Carbon, usually supplied as Charcoal, Coke or Anthracite coal, this is added to the glass mix so not used as a fuel to heat the ovens, I didn't know that

 

[Dikitriki]

I didn't know that

Chaps, I've found the missing anorak

 

[mickoo]

Chaps, I've found the missing anorak

LOL that'll be my cue to exit stage right then

 

[Dave]

Thanks for the replies so far.

Just been reading up on basic glass production and 'apparently' you need to add some form of Carbon, usually supplied as Charcoal, Coke or Anthracite coal, this is added to the glass mix so not used as a fuel to heat the ovens, I didn't know that

That's my excuse for some scruffy 16t minerals then.

So far we've got:

IN - sand (Covhops) coal (16t minerals) - or coke (coke hoppers)

OUT - bottles etc. (shoc vans) plate glass (special glass wagons)

I guess whatever minerals they use to colour the glass would either come in by road or rail vans in bagged form?

 

[Pennine MC]

Seriously - coke is much more acidic than coal and hence promotes corrosion of steel panels at a greater rate than best nutty slack. If coke was being moved by rail in the 1950s, what would have been the typical vehicle for such traffic?

In the '50s, there would still have been a quantity of ex-PO coke wagons, being essentially the 1923 pattern with coke raves - possible that some of those were pooled for some coke traffics. There were even some 21T coke wagons based on the 'Felix Pole' pattern steel mineral - again I think those may have been on a specific flow (cant recall OTTOMH who the original owner was).

Corrosion doesnt seem to have been as much a consideration as sturdiness though - the BR standard 20T coke hopper as referenced by Steve progressed from having steel sides with wooden raves, through full steel ends and eventually to being a huge steel tub.

 

[mickoo]

You will also need lime or limestone if crushed on site and Sodium Carbonate, suspect lime will arrive, if by rail in bagged powder form or raw limestone but no idea how Sodium Carbonate would arrive, but it can be transported in liquid form so a tank wagon of some sort.

 

[Dog Star]

So far we've got:

IN - sand (Covhops) coal (16t minerals) - or coke (coke hoppers)

I have no idea if this was a traffic carried on the railways... maybe your glassworks uses cullet in the mix?

regards, Graham

 

[Dave]

Graham,

Sand was definitely carried by the railways. A load of Covhops were painted up especially for British Industrial Sands/Rockware glass traffic. In fact it's a picture of a Ruston 48DS, at Rockware's Knottingley factory, with such a wagon that gave me the idea of a rail-served glass works. Paul Bartlett's photo site has plenty of pictures of the wagons too.

 

[Osgood]

Just had a flip through the St.Helens book. Not very forthcoming on nature of rail traffic other than sand and coal - other than the fact that there was very significant tank traffic to one or two of the larger plants, suggesting the use of oil for the furnaces up until the advent of natural gas in the 1970s. I'm guessing heavier grade - 200 or 3500 sec for burning in furnaces. Oh, and slack coal traffic for use in gas producers, so some plants produced their own gas.