GWR Wagon Number plates and Coopercraft kits

Dog Star

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
I am referring to the rectangular plates for (a) wagon numbers and (b) "G.W.R" ownership which were fitted to some new builds in the period circa 1895 to circa 1900. Chris Brown (@ChrisBr) and I are doing prototype research into the subject, accompanied by trials with etching of 7mm plates, for a couple of S7 layouts that are being built by Peter / I and by Chris. To date we have searched through circa 30 books likely to feature photographs of wagons of the period and I have created a spreadsheet of the results.

At this point I wish for some help from WTers.

Coopercraft (now Slaters) kits for GWR wagons include some mouldings of the rectangular plates in some of the kits, if you have any of these kits and can find the moulded plates then I shall be interested to know:-

a) what kit in what scale?;
b) what GWR wagon diagram?;
c) what numbers are provided?.

thank you, Graham
 
M

Malcolm Trevena

Member
Graham
The 7mm Coopercraft/Slaters GWR wagon kits that I have do not contain any of the rectangular plates but, the Peco 7mm (ex Webster) 4 plank open wagon (05?) does contain those moulded plates. There are 2 different numbers included, these are 632 and 73691. Hope this helps.
Malcolm
 
Pencarrow

Pencarrow

Western Thunderer
In 7mm the Slater's ex Coopercraft wagons are as follows:

7011 GWR 5plank open with sheet rail Diag 04
7012 GWR 5plank open Diag 02
7013 GWR 4plank open Diag 05
7014 GWR iron loco coal Diag N13
7015 GWR 3plank open (rebuilt)
7016 GWR match truck

I only have 7011 and 7013 but neither contain cast chassis number plates.

The instructions do suggest some numbers though:

rps20190207_222044.jpg
 
Overseer

Overseer

Western Thunderer
I am pretty sure the only Coopercraft kit with number plates was the 4mm scale catalogue number 1004, GWR O5 open 4 plank (1902). I bought two when they were first released for 91p each and built them straight out of the packet, one with the plates on. I would measure them for you but can't remember where the box is at the moment. Better to get dimensions of the real thing anyway. They look like this (when last out of the box).
GWCpcrft.jpg
I remember them being really nice kits but who would put dreadful tension lock couplers on them? Looks like the brakes are on backwards on the left hand wagon. Oh well, got to start somewhere.
 
ChrisBr

ChrisBr

Western Thunderer
Dave,
As the other half of the interested group thanks very much.
These are the later style plates (as I understand it) with G.W. and the wagon number on one plate. We are looking to model the earlier plates which had the number and company identity (G.W.R) on separate plates.
Regards,

Chris
 
Dog Star

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Thank you to all for the information that you have offered here... as of this moment a "real, live, example" of the number plate or of the "G.W.R" plate has yet to surface. Sorry Dave (@daifly) about possibly mis-leading you, I shall see if we can post an example of a pure "number" plate to ensure that our quest is clear to all.

Malcolm (@Malcolm Trevena), thank you for the information about the ex-Webster wagon now produced by Peco, I had forgotten about this avenue for information. The two numbers that you mention are "correct" in that photographs exist of these wagons when fitted with the rectangular, number-only, plates.

daifly said:
Ahh, OK. For interest only then!
Click to expand...
Ahh... no, not interest only! I shall send you a copy of the GWR drawing for this style of plates and I ask you to compare each of your plates with that drawing - and then advise Chris (@ChrisBr) and I of the compliance between the plates and the drawing. In the meantime... Chris and I are keen to know the overall size of the metal plates which were used to create the pattern when casting each new number - in the foundry the men had a pattern which provided for the outer frame and the back of the number plate, that pattern had recesses for each of the individual plates which made up the complete number. So for a five digit number, eg. 12345, I think that the sand mould would have included impressions from five separate pattern plates to make up the number. We have yet to find clear, broadside, photos of wagons with three and four digit numbers to see how the "blanks" were achieved!

thanks to all, Graham
 
daifly

daifly

Western Thunderer
The drawing shows dimensions and layout exactly like my plates. The 93801 plate shows the individual numbers - like printing type. The lack of kerning with the number 1 is evident!
The individual numbers are on plates that are consistently 2-5/16" high and 1-15/16" wide with the digit centrally placed.
As your drawing shows, the plates are 6" high x 1'-0 1/2" wide. There's too much paint and crud on the 99875 plates to discern any moulding marks and Mrs DF takes a dim view of any attempts to use wire brushes etc. indoors!
Dave
 
simond

simond

Western Thunderer
I have a shoebox of unopened Coopercraft kits for three & four planked wagons, steel coal wagons and a couple of match trucks. Whilst I can recall when building earlier models that there were number plates in some kits, I can’t see any mouldings in the bags, and I don’t want to open them, so sorry, tried, but can’t help.

Best
Simon
 
ChrisBr

ChrisBr

Western Thunderer
As way of an example, please see this extract from Plate 643 of GWR Goods Wagons by Atkins, Beard & Tourrett
upload_2019-2-9_8-6-55.png
What's not shown in this snip is the 3rd plate for the Tare, see this extract from Fig61 of GW Wagons Appendix by Russell which also shows the amendment of the ownership plate for departmental use
upload_2019-2-9_8-12-42.png
Hope that helps explain the ask

Regards,
Chris
 
Dog Star

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
So where are we after two weeks?

We have produced a spread sheet detailing at least fifty photographs showing the name and number plates which were affixed to the body sheeting (or solebars in some cases). That work has revealed that not only did the GWR use cast iron plates for (a) wagon number and (b) ownership, the GWR used cast iron plates for (c) load / tare, (d) departmental ownership (for service stock) and (e) depot allocation for brake vans. We have a few photos which are (close enough to) broadside and hence the "plates" can be scanned into a CAD package. Using the CAD drawings some test etches have been produced and the results are promising - the first plates are for "G.W.R", wagon numbers are pending.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the preserved GWR wagon stock has the plates which interest us - you may know different to us so please step forward. I am not aware as yet of any prototype drawing so the thoughts have turned to examples in museums, for example the Kidderminster Railway Museum, Steam at Swindon, the NRM. This is where WTers can help... when visiting railway museums / heritage sites, please keep your eyes open for displays of artefacts and let Chris / I know if you spot any of the plates as per Chris's photos above.

Thank you, Graham
 
3 LINK

3 LINK

Western Thunderer
Good evening Gents,

I am probably barking up the wrong tree, nothing new there I hear you say..

Below is part of what is left of a Connoisseur kit etch of a GWR bogie Macaw bolster B, good old Jim has been kind enough to put some little extras on the fret and this includes wagon number plates, a couple of signs ( see photo ) and a few coupling hooks. Sorry for the quality of picture, I think my iPad does not like the fluorescent tubes in my toy room...

Regards,

Martyn.

IMG_0906.JPG IMG_0907.JPG IMG_0908.JPG IMG_0909.JPG
 
ChrisBr

ChrisBr

Western Thunderer
So here's the prototype ownership plate etch with a coat of paint.... (circa 11mm x 3mm)

GWR prototype plate.jpg

Bit of work to do on the lettering and then I think I'll be drawing up some numbers next. Big question on numbers was how many different length plates were used (assuming more than one)?

Chris
 
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