john lewsey
Western Thunderer
Hi have you ever looked at Heroes of the foot plate .On Pete Armstrongs blogs he's built some nice models so of H R loco's probably not the period your modelling but nice to look at
Regards
John
Regards
John
Highland Railway wagons
- Thread starter Overseer
- Start date
Overseer
Western Thunderer
John,
I hadn't looked at Pete's blog for a year or so. His Highland locos are very nice and he has even managed to finish the Jones 4-4-0 tank kit which is a real achievement. I bought one at Telford in 2011 - it is started but the idea of buying it was to speed up the construction of the front end but the etched bits aren't quite the right shape and the instructions tell you to work it out for yourself, which is where the build is stalled. He is modelling the post 1900 period but lots of the early locos and stock lasted a long time so was still in service.
Overseer
Western Thunderer
Highland Railway Type K Fish Wagons - Kippers or Klondykers?
I am not sure whether the Type K designation for the Jones design fish wagons was random or whether the K was selected because the primary function of the wagons was to transport Herring packed in salt and ice from the west coast to the east coast ports as quickly as possible for export, known as Klondyking, or for herring to be salted as kippers. The Klondyke was the slang name for the lucrative trade in near fresh herring to Germany involving overnight fast trains and fast steamers to deliver the fish. In 1930 12% of the herring catch was exported fresh to Germany. Fishermen received far less for herring destined for kippers.
Anyway, the trade required special fish wagons on the Highland Railway and some of the other Scottish railways including the Great North of Scotland. The Jones Type K fish wagon was 18' long over the body x 8' wide on an 11' wheelbase and passenger type Mansell wheels were used. Rated capacity was just 4 tons. Jones used all his 'trademark' details including narrow headstocks, wide body and inverted T crown plates. They looked like this-
The painting still needs a bit of sorting out. This is another one piece polyurethane resin body by Archibald Works, released in 2000. Very simple and quick to build, the kit came with etched compensated W irons and brake gear (if that is not too grand a term for a lever and single shoe) and the Highland Railway Society spring, axlebox and buffer guide castings. This one was put together in a very short time before an exhibition and I have others to complete. I still have the pattern so could produce more if there was demand for them. They were later fitted with through vacuum pipes for mixed train working. There is a minor mystery regarding the appearance of these wagons in transit as there appear to be no photographs of them in motion. It is thought that tarpaulins would have been used to cover the boxes of fish, salt and ice but there are no apparent hooks visible on the wagons for tying tarpaulins on to. The GNoS fish wagons did have tarpaulin hooks on their bodies so it is likely the Highland would also have had them, maybe they were more discrete and we just need a clearer photograph to see them.
This circa 1900 photograph of Kyle of Lochalsh has a train of them in the foreground.
As does this one, also at Kyle of Lochalsh.
The first photo of Kyle also had a rake of North British Railway coal wagons. They are an interesting mix of the traditional Scottish coal 'bogie' and more modern wagons, although most still with dumb buffers. Most coal on the Highland seems to have been transported in non-Highland wagons so some examples are necessary on a Highland model. The later wagons in the photograph can be easily kit bashed from the Parkside Dundas Jubilee coal wagon kit - they just need 7mm cut from the centre of the sides and new solebars. The Parkside kit is of considerable vintage as it was tooled by Ian Kirk but it still looks ok. I have one in progress, in undercoat to check the plastic surgery to the body but still missing some of the solebar details and the handbrake needs adjusting. It also has my etched W irons which are to scale for this wagon and considerably finer than the plastic version in the kit. The GA for this wagon is in Hooper's North British wagon book. This is actually an 1880s design so a bit modern for my 1870s period but there is nothing in its construction which wouldn't have been done if they had been built 20 years earlier so it doesn't look out of place.
And a scratchbuilt styrene North British coal bogie as also in the photo, still unfinished after 15 years or more. This pre-dates my etched W irons so has the Parkside Dundas plastic ones.
Next time the loco coal wagon with no doors.
I am not sure whether the Type K designation for the Jones design fish wagons was random or whether the K was selected because the primary function of the wagons was to transport Herring packed in salt and ice from the west coast to the east coast ports as quickly as possible for export, known as Klondyking, or for herring to be salted as kippers. The Klondyke was the slang name for the lucrative trade in near fresh herring to Germany involving overnight fast trains and fast steamers to deliver the fish. In 1930 12% of the herring catch was exported fresh to Germany. Fishermen received far less for herring destined for kippers.
Anyway, the trade required special fish wagons on the Highland Railway and some of the other Scottish railways including the Great North of Scotland. The Jones Type K fish wagon was 18' long over the body x 8' wide on an 11' wheelbase and passenger type Mansell wheels were used. Rated capacity was just 4 tons. Jones used all his 'trademark' details including narrow headstocks, wide body and inverted T crown plates. They looked like this-
The painting still needs a bit of sorting out. This is another one piece polyurethane resin body by Archibald Works, released in 2000. Very simple and quick to build, the kit came with etched compensated W irons and brake gear (if that is not too grand a term for a lever and single shoe) and the Highland Railway Society spring, axlebox and buffer guide castings. This one was put together in a very short time before an exhibition and I have others to complete. I still have the pattern so could produce more if there was demand for them. They were later fitted with through vacuum pipes for mixed train working. There is a minor mystery regarding the appearance of these wagons in transit as there appear to be no photographs of them in motion. It is thought that tarpaulins would have been used to cover the boxes of fish, salt and ice but there are no apparent hooks visible on the wagons for tying tarpaulins on to. The GNoS fish wagons did have tarpaulin hooks on their bodies so it is likely the Highland would also have had them, maybe they were more discrete and we just need a clearer photograph to see them.
This circa 1900 photograph of Kyle of Lochalsh has a train of them in the foreground.
As does this one, also at Kyle of Lochalsh.
The first photo of Kyle also had a rake of North British Railway coal wagons. They are an interesting mix of the traditional Scottish coal 'bogie' and more modern wagons, although most still with dumb buffers. Most coal on the Highland seems to have been transported in non-Highland wagons so some examples are necessary on a Highland model. The later wagons in the photograph can be easily kit bashed from the Parkside Dundas Jubilee coal wagon kit - they just need 7mm cut from the centre of the sides and new solebars. The Parkside kit is of considerable vintage as it was tooled by Ian Kirk but it still looks ok. I have one in progress, in undercoat to check the plastic surgery to the body but still missing some of the solebar details and the handbrake needs adjusting. It also has my etched W irons which are to scale for this wagon and considerably finer than the plastic version in the kit. The GA for this wagon is in Hooper's North British wagon book. This is actually an 1880s design so a bit modern for my 1870s period but there is nothing in its construction which wouldn't have been done if they had been built 20 years earlier so it doesn't look out of place.
And a scratchbuilt styrene North British coal bogie as also in the photo, still unfinished after 15 years or more. This pre-dates my etched W irons so has the Parkside Dundas plastic ones.
Next time the loco coal wagon with no doors.
Overseer
Western Thunderer
Type H Loco Coal wagons
I am not certain that all the Type H Loco Coal wagons were without doors but the ones that appear in photographs are. Presumably the logic was that as the coal benches were high enough to allow coal to be efficiently shovelled into a tender the coal would have to be shovelled up onto the bench from the same track so doors would be no help. Coaling was a primitive affair on the Highland.
Parts of Type H wagons appear in the background of a number of published photographs, usually part obscured by a locomotive or cropped off the edge of the photo.
The end of a Type H wagon in the 1880s, with white painted tyres.
A Type H Loco Coal wagon at Kyle of Lochalsh in 1899 or early 1900, with the post 1896 large HR lettering.
The Type H wagons were dumb buffered. Apart from that they had the typical Jones details seen in the previous wagons.
The model is scratchbuilt in styrene. I am not sure whether the narrow top plank was a hardwood plank to protect the lower pine planks or whether it was a wrought iron capping piece, probably the latter.
The other Highland wagon type with dumb buffers were the Type I ballast wagons. These also had the standard Jones inverted T crown plates and other Jones details. I haven't built a model yet as I haven't organised getting a copy of the only photograph I have seen showing these wagons. The photograph is in Bob Essery's collection and shows two of the wagons with 'BALLAST' painted on the sides. I don't think it has been published as it is not of great quality but has enough detail to build a model from combined with the diagram dimensions. Now, I really should do something about the ballast wagons.
I am not certain that all the Type H Loco Coal wagons were without doors but the ones that appear in photographs are. Presumably the logic was that as the coal benches were high enough to allow coal to be efficiently shovelled into a tender the coal would have to be shovelled up onto the bench from the same track so doors would be no help. Coaling was a primitive affair on the Highland.
Parts of Type H wagons appear in the background of a number of published photographs, usually part obscured by a locomotive or cropped off the edge of the photo.
The end of a Type H wagon in the 1880s, with white painted tyres.
A Type H Loco Coal wagon at Kyle of Lochalsh in 1899 or early 1900, with the post 1896 large HR lettering.
The Type H wagons were dumb buffered. Apart from that they had the typical Jones details seen in the previous wagons.
The model is scratchbuilt in styrene. I am not sure whether the narrow top plank was a hardwood plank to protect the lower pine planks or whether it was a wrought iron capping piece, probably the latter.
The other Highland wagon type with dumb buffers were the Type I ballast wagons. These also had the standard Jones inverted T crown plates and other Jones details. I haven't built a model yet as I haven't organised getting a copy of the only photograph I have seen showing these wagons. The photograph is in Bob Essery's collection and shows two of the wagons with 'BALLAST' painted on the sides. I don't think it has been published as it is not of great quality but has enough detail to build a model from combined with the diagram dimensions. Now, I really should do something about the ballast wagons.
Overseer
Western Thunderer
Before getting to the Type L timber wagons it makes sense to look at the other early Highland Railway open wagons. This is an area where it is probable that there is more that we don't know than we know. Fortunately there are a number of good photographs taken during the 1870s and 1880s which include Highland Railway wagons in them and give us an idea of how train looked at the time. George Washington Wilson and his staff photographers took numerous postcard views of which the glass plate negatives are fortunately preserved at the Aberdeen University Library and are available to view online. Of Highland Railway interest, there are a series of photographs looking over Blair Atholl taken over a number of years, another series of Aberfeldy and another of Strome Ferry. There are also other individual photographs with HR subjects included, such as this crop from a photograph of Campbell's Hotel in Forres which happens to include part of the adjacent level crossing and railway line - very useful for getting contemporary details right.
But back to wagons, the Strome Ferry views show some open wagons that are definitely Highland Railway as they have the illiteracy symbol and HR number plates but I am not able to positively identify any of them.
These are two parts of the same photo.
And the same wagons from a different direction. Note there are 5 near-identical four plank open wagons and 2 different two plank doorless opens. The older looking 2 plank wagon has external timber verticals and outside W irons. It looks similar to the Type L timber wagon but the sides splay outward instead of being vertical as on the Type L wagons (this may become clearer following the post on Type L wagons). Outside W irons were not used on later HR stock. The more modern looking, but dumb buffered, open has all the Jones details and is probably related to the Type A wagons but has only two wide planks instead of four.
The four plank wagons are probably earlier than the Jones standard wagons. I had thought they were all replaced or rebuilt during the Jones period but while looking at other photos for this thread noticed that at least one survived into the Drummond period (after 1896) as it appears at Kyle of Lochalsh which didn't open until 1899. In the centre of this image-
As this wagon survived to the time the Diagram book was prepared it is possible that these wagons were referred to as Type F as the dimensions appear to match. These wagons will be my next scratchbuild, probably as a master to cast from as I will need several. Richard Davidson produced a drawing of them in 2006 using higher resolution prints of the Strome Ferry photos. The series of photographs of Blair Atholl give an idea of how common these wagons were. One of the photographs was published in the Highland Main Line by Neil Sinclair, (I am not sure if it is in the second edition), showing 27 wagons of which 10 are of the four plank type seen in the Strome Ferry photograph. Notice the low height of nearly all the wagons, other photos show more vans but not high sided opens. Also the great majority of the rolling stock visible is Highland Railway owned, probably 75% or more.
And a detail
This is a crop of the online version of the same image which shows that the resolution currently available online is not the full detail on the negatives. I have included it as it appears to show the ongoing degradation of the glass plate negative, the emulsion failure seems to be getting worse since Neil Sinclair's print was made.
Were these four plank wagons Type F? Hopefully, the new book by Peter Tatlow will answer all the queries on the early period but if it doesn't get to the bottom of things we still have plenty of information to build models from.
Next time for anyone still interested in this arcane topic, the long lived and unusual Type L timber wagons.
But back to wagons, the Strome Ferry views show some open wagons that are definitely Highland Railway as they have the illiteracy symbol and HR number plates but I am not able to positively identify any of them.
These are two parts of the same photo.
And the same wagons from a different direction. Note there are 5 near-identical four plank open wagons and 2 different two plank doorless opens. The older looking 2 plank wagon has external timber verticals and outside W irons. It looks similar to the Type L timber wagon but the sides splay outward instead of being vertical as on the Type L wagons (this may become clearer following the post on Type L wagons). Outside W irons were not used on later HR stock. The more modern looking, but dumb buffered, open has all the Jones details and is probably related to the Type A wagons but has only two wide planks instead of four.
The four plank wagons are probably earlier than the Jones standard wagons. I had thought they were all replaced or rebuilt during the Jones period but while looking at other photos for this thread noticed that at least one survived into the Drummond period (after 1896) as it appears at Kyle of Lochalsh which didn't open until 1899. In the centre of this image-
As this wagon survived to the time the Diagram book was prepared it is possible that these wagons were referred to as Type F as the dimensions appear to match. These wagons will be my next scratchbuild, probably as a master to cast from as I will need several. Richard Davidson produced a drawing of them in 2006 using higher resolution prints of the Strome Ferry photos. The series of photographs of Blair Atholl give an idea of how common these wagons were. One of the photographs was published in the Highland Main Line by Neil Sinclair, (I am not sure if it is in the second edition), showing 27 wagons of which 10 are of the four plank type seen in the Strome Ferry photograph. Notice the low height of nearly all the wagons, other photos show more vans but not high sided opens. Also the great majority of the rolling stock visible is Highland Railway owned, probably 75% or more.
And a detail
This is a crop of the online version of the same image which shows that the resolution currently available online is not the full detail on the negatives. I have included it as it appears to show the ongoing degradation of the glass plate negative, the emulsion failure seems to be getting worse since Neil Sinclair's print was made.
Were these four plank wagons Type F? Hopefully, the new book by Peter Tatlow will answer all the queries on the early period but if it doesn't get to the bottom of things we still have plenty of information to build models from.
Next time for anyone still interested in this arcane topic, the long lived and unusual Type L timber wagons.
Osgood
Western Thunderer
Like the half-round (or maybe even fully round) sleepers!
Overseer
Western Thunderer
They won't be fully round, the Highland wasn't that primitive. I like the ballast covering the sleepers, as was common on most railways until it was realised that rotten sleepers couldn't be seen and replaced before they fell apart. The dirt filled ballast would also not provide good drainage so the pine sleepers probably didn't last too long even if they were creosoted.
Overseer
Western Thunderer
Type L Timber Wagons
The Type L timber wagons were a primitive design with timber verticals supporting the two plank sides in line with the solebars. The ends had drop down doors which seem to have been removed in the later HR period. They also had two iron uprights per side forming sockets for timber stakes to raise the load height. While primitive they must have been useful as photographs show quite a few surviving into LMS days. They had none of the typical Jones details and seem to have always had 3' diameter wheels. Presumably they date from before Jones began designing wagons for the Highland. As well as timber they were used for carrying all sorts of other goods, actually I am not aware of any photographs showing them actually loaded with timber and the only photo I am aware of showing stakes fitted is a 1920s photo of Inverness yard which has several in the background.
Type L number 687. Not sure what date the serifed numbers on the number plate were in use from and til, something I didn't allow for when I did the number plate artwork.
Three Type L wagons at Strome Ferry carrying pipes. These wagons appear in several photographs with tarpaulins over them.
And a model. This is a white metal kit I bought from The Home of O Gauge in the 1990s. I think Ian Middleditch was involved with the pattern making. The same kit is currently available from Invertrain. It is quite accurate apart from the excessively thick sides and ends, the prototype had very thin planks. The springs and axleboxes are the Highland Railway Society ones but the springs are not right for these wagons.
And some unfinished scratchbuilt ones, started 15 years ago. I don't think these could be called Shelf Queens, they are much too lowly, perhaps Shelf Gillies might be more appropriate. I can't remember why I thought I needed four of them so will probably finish two in the not too distant future.
And an 1870s photo including one on Strome Ferry pier, partially hidden by the tarpaulin covered pile of goods. It appears to be unpainted timber, for which I have no explanation as I am not aware of other wagons of the time being unpainted. The ship hiding behind the pier is SS Ferret again. This is the clearest view I am aware of showing the earlier Highland Railway tarpaulins (as seen on a Type C wagon at Forres in one of the earlier posts) with serifed lettering - later ones had simpler non serif lettering. I have drawn them but haven't yet managed to make them look convincing on a wagon.
This pretty much concludes the first half of the alphabet of Types, the open wagons. As may have become clear, there is quite a lot I don't know much about, with a few Types with diagrams but no definitely identified photographs and other wagons appearing in photographs with no known information. Not sure what the next type to be covered will be, whether to look at some of the oddities in the middle or to go to the end of the alphabet and look at vans of various types. Any preferences?
The Type L timber wagons were a primitive design with timber verticals supporting the two plank sides in line with the solebars. The ends had drop down doors which seem to have been removed in the later HR period. They also had two iron uprights per side forming sockets for timber stakes to raise the load height. While primitive they must have been useful as photographs show quite a few surviving into LMS days. They had none of the typical Jones details and seem to have always had 3' diameter wheels. Presumably they date from before Jones began designing wagons for the Highland. As well as timber they were used for carrying all sorts of other goods, actually I am not aware of any photographs showing them actually loaded with timber and the only photo I am aware of showing stakes fitted is a 1920s photo of Inverness yard which has several in the background.
Type L number 687. Not sure what date the serifed numbers on the number plate were in use from and til, something I didn't allow for when I did the number plate artwork.
Three Type L wagons at Strome Ferry carrying pipes. These wagons appear in several photographs with tarpaulins over them.
And a model. This is a white metal kit I bought from The Home of O Gauge in the 1990s. I think Ian Middleditch was involved with the pattern making. The same kit is currently available from Invertrain. It is quite accurate apart from the excessively thick sides and ends, the prototype had very thin planks. The springs and axleboxes are the Highland Railway Society ones but the springs are not right for these wagons.
And some unfinished scratchbuilt ones, started 15 years ago. I don't think these could be called Shelf Queens, they are much too lowly, perhaps Shelf Gillies might be more appropriate. I can't remember why I thought I needed four of them so will probably finish two in the not too distant future.
And an 1870s photo including one on Strome Ferry pier, partially hidden by the tarpaulin covered pile of goods. It appears to be unpainted timber, for which I have no explanation as I am not aware of other wagons of the time being unpainted. The ship hiding behind the pier is SS Ferret again. This is the clearest view I am aware of showing the earlier Highland Railway tarpaulins (as seen on a Type C wagon at Forres in one of the earlier posts) with serifed lettering - later ones had simpler non serif lettering. I have drawn them but haven't yet managed to make them look convincing on a wagon.
This pretty much concludes the first half of the alphabet of Types, the open wagons. As may have become clear, there is quite a lot I don't know much about, with a few Types with diagrams but no definitely identified photographs and other wagons appearing in photographs with no known information. Not sure what the next type to be covered will be, whether to look at some of the oddities in the middle or to go to the end of the alphabet and look at vans of various types. Any preferences?
Overseer
Western Thunderer
Mike,
No I don't think I have a copy of that one but would be very interested to see it. The print of the 2462 photo was one of a random selection of Scottish wagon photos given to me years ago by Tony Watts, I would have to check with him whose collection they came from. I expect that 1291 will be a Drummond or later wagon but maybe not.
Fraser
Bill Bedford
Western Thunderer
Just a couple of questions about the Type L:
Was there anywhere on the wagon to store the stakes? and what is the what is the plate just above the left hand end of the brake lever? It looks like as if it there is a label clip in the centre.
Was there anywhere on the wagon to store the stakes? and what is the what is the plate just above the left hand end of the brake lever? It looks like as if it there is a label clip in the centre.
Overseer
Western Thunderer
No, the stakes seem to have been any suitable sized timber to hand when loading, and not necessarily completely straight. The Inverness photo shows stakes about 6' long. Not sure about the plate, I haven't noticed them on other wagons, but it certainly has a label clip on it and there also seems to be one on the Type L wagon at Kyle. I would expect all the wagons to have had similar label clips but they are not obvious in most photos.
Overseer
Western Thunderer
Covered Goods Vans
Skipping over the Type M swivel timber wagons (due to my lack of any more information about them than is shown on the diagram) and several interesting one offs, which we might come back to, brings us to the Covered Goods vans. I will confess to not being convinced that the story of these vans has been fully unravelled. The 1901 diagram book lists 441 vans (about 15% of wagon stock) in Types Q, R and S but is not very helpful in distinguishing between them. Type Q was a 'Covered Goods' 16' x 8', Type R was a 'Covered Goods' 16' x 7'7" and there are two different Type S diagrams, one (later Diag 8) was a 'Luggage Van' 16' x 8' and the other (Diag 29) 16'3" x 7'6". Type Q was by far the most numerous but the van shown in the line diagram does not appear to be in many photographs. The same illustration was also used for Type R with a different width shown. Before we get even more confused lets look at some evidence.
This is the most often illustrated type of Highland Railway van during the 1870s. The width appears to be 8' so it could be one of the 373 Type Q covered goods but the diagram shows two intermediate verticals between the ends and the doors instead of the single one in the photograph. It could also be a Type S Luggage Van but the diagram for that doesn't show any verticals. One of this type is visible in the background at Kyle of Lochalsh circa 1900 so they survived a considerable length of time.
And a nice side view, apart from the tree in the way, at Invershin.
And another, at Aberfeldy.
The coal 'bogies' in the background are Lochgelly Iron & Coal Co wagons - this raises a question irrelevant to HR vans but of interest as I plan to build models of some of them - What colour are they? Later Lochgelly stock was red but these look too dark in comparison with the Indian Red HR wagons adjacent and look like they may be black. The Lochgelly 'corporate image' at this time was very distinctive and way ahead of its time - the pale (white?) band had 'LOCHGELLY' or 'LOCHGELLY FIFE' spaced out in fairly fine black lettering the full height of the band.
Back to the vans, the colour has also been much discussed. It is thought that vans used in passenger trains were painted green to match the carriages. So maybe these are all Type S Luggage Vans and maybe they were green. I scratch built one and painted it green then made a mess of finishing it in a rush before an exhibition. This is the only time I have used acrylics to 'weather' stock, and it may come off. I also had an aberration while building it and made the roof too curved. It is still without number plates as I have never been sure what number it should have, but will probably number it as a Type S, between 769 and 780.
I haven't seen a complete picture of a definite Highland Railway van with two verticals on the sides as shown on the diagram book illustrations. There are lots of similar vans in photographs but most of them seem to have the body directly above the solebars, so are narrower, and probably belong to the North British or one of the other Scottish railways. But this background view does show part of a Highland Railway van, probably a Type R covered goods van. The Highland vans seem to be wider and taller than most of the other contemporary railway vans.
I have no idea why there are two Type S included in the diagram book. I just realised I haven't checked whether the Luggage Van Type S (Diag 8) is part of the carriage stock even though they are numbered in the wagon series. The other Type S (Diag 29) has dimensions unlike any other Highland vehicle.
At some stage I will build some more vans. Hopefully after more information becomes available so they can look right and have the right numbers on them. Looking at the photos of the models has reminded me of why I am glad I model in Scale7 - the wheels look right, much more important with earlier, smaller, stock as the wheels are a larger part of the whole, especially with the larger 3'6" wheels used by Jones for nearly all his wagons.
Skipping over the Type M swivel timber wagons (due to my lack of any more information about them than is shown on the diagram) and several interesting one offs, which we might come back to, brings us to the Covered Goods vans. I will confess to not being convinced that the story of these vans has been fully unravelled. The 1901 diagram book lists 441 vans (about 15% of wagon stock) in Types Q, R and S but is not very helpful in distinguishing between them. Type Q was a 'Covered Goods' 16' x 8', Type R was a 'Covered Goods' 16' x 7'7" and there are two different Type S diagrams, one (later Diag 8) was a 'Luggage Van' 16' x 8' and the other (Diag 29) 16'3" x 7'6". Type Q was by far the most numerous but the van shown in the line diagram does not appear to be in many photographs. The same illustration was also used for Type R with a different width shown. Before we get even more confused lets look at some evidence.
This is the most often illustrated type of Highland Railway van during the 1870s. The width appears to be 8' so it could be one of the 373 Type Q covered goods but the diagram shows two intermediate verticals between the ends and the doors instead of the single one in the photograph. It could also be a Type S Luggage Van but the diagram for that doesn't show any verticals. One of this type is visible in the background at Kyle of Lochalsh circa 1900 so they survived a considerable length of time.
And a nice side view, apart from the tree in the way, at Invershin.
And another, at Aberfeldy.
The coal 'bogies' in the background are Lochgelly Iron & Coal Co wagons - this raises a question irrelevant to HR vans but of interest as I plan to build models of some of them - What colour are they? Later Lochgelly stock was red but these look too dark in comparison with the Indian Red HR wagons adjacent and look like they may be black. The Lochgelly 'corporate image' at this time was very distinctive and way ahead of its time - the pale (white?) band had 'LOCHGELLY' or 'LOCHGELLY FIFE' spaced out in fairly fine black lettering the full height of the band.
Back to the vans, the colour has also been much discussed. It is thought that vans used in passenger trains were painted green to match the carriages. So maybe these are all Type S Luggage Vans and maybe they were green. I scratch built one and painted it green then made a mess of finishing it in a rush before an exhibition. This is the only time I have used acrylics to 'weather' stock, and it may come off. I also had an aberration while building it and made the roof too curved. It is still without number plates as I have never been sure what number it should have, but will probably number it as a Type S, between 769 and 780.
I haven't seen a complete picture of a definite Highland Railway van with two verticals on the sides as shown on the diagram book illustrations. There are lots of similar vans in photographs but most of them seem to have the body directly above the solebars, so are narrower, and probably belong to the North British or one of the other Scottish railways. But this background view does show part of a Highland Railway van, probably a Type R covered goods van. The Highland vans seem to be wider and taller than most of the other contemporary railway vans.
I have no idea why there are two Type S included in the diagram book. I just realised I haven't checked whether the Luggage Van Type S (Diag 8) is part of the carriage stock even though they are numbered in the wagon series. The other Type S (Diag 29) has dimensions unlike any other Highland vehicle.
At some stage I will build some more vans. Hopefully after more information becomes available so they can look right and have the right numbers on them. Looking at the photos of the models has reminded me of why I am glad I model in Scale7 - the wheels look right, much more important with earlier, smaller, stock as the wheels are a larger part of the whole, especially with the larger 3'6" wheels used by Jones for nearly all his wagons.
Overseer
Western Thunderer
Yes, it probably is a Type S Luggage Van. The Mansell wheels aren't necessarily a sign of it being passenger stock though as there a number of photos of simple open wagons with Mansell wheels around the same period. Using the same wheel size for both passenger and goods stock made it easy to reuse part worn wheels and axles on goods stock. In the 1870s the use of Mansell wheels was not universal on passenger stock, for example on the Highland first class carriages had Mansell wheels while third class usually had split spoke wheels. Later, Mansell wheels spread to all carriage stock.Really enjoying this thread
My money is on your van being a variant of the luggage van, two out of your three pictures show it in a passenger train and one of them has Mansell wheels - that ain't no truck
Simon
Overseer
Western Thunderer
Vans for animals, dead and alive.
Reaching Type T means that we are entering territory where my knowledge is hazy to say the least. Type T were Meat Vans, 17'6" long x 8' wide on an 11' wheelbase. That is just about the limit of my knowledge. Hopefully, Peter Tatlow's forthcoming book will reveal all. There are a couple of vans in the background of photos which could be Type T Meat Vans but I am not sure.
Type U Cattle wagons are easier as they appear in quite a few photographs and Peter Tatlow's drawing is available from the Highland Railway Society. I was going to say that they were designed by Jones, but they may not have been as they were amongst the earliest wagon stock on the Highland, however the 1870s photographs show vehicles with Jones characteristic details and dimensions.
Three Type U cattle wagons on the pier at Strome Ferry during the 1870s. Evidently loading cattle onto Ferret, with the shunting horse just visible next to the lamp post on the pier.
A partial view of a Type U van at Aberfeldy, also during the 1870s. Note the height and width of the HR cattle wagon in comparison with the vans on the adjacent siding which I think might be North British stock. I haven't analysed it in any detail but it seems that during the 19th Century the larger the railway company, the less it spent per wagon. So it was common for a smaller railway with 2,000 or so wagons to have larger, more advanced wagons than than a larger railway company with tens or hundreds of thousands of wagons.
And one in a train at Kyle of Lochalsh, circa 1900.
This is part of a published photo (in Lambert) of part of a Type U cattle wagon, included as it shows some of the detail more clearly. I should get a scan of the original photo to make things much clearer. Note the upper doors extend only high enough to carry the horizontal bar across the opening. Also Jones style buffers.
I can't show you a model photo as I haven't built any yet. But having looked at them in more detail for this post I think that I now have enough information to get on with it.
There was also a Type V cattle wagon which was slightly shorter and narrower. I am not sure if Type V was a Drummond design as they have quite high numbers, but probably not as Drummond usually rebuilt wagons to his design without apparently changing the type designation or diagram.
Type W was the Valuable Cattle Wagon which I can't illustrate. Their high number block suggests they were built during the 1890s so are after my main period of interest so I haven't looked too hard. But if anyone else can I would like to see them.
Types X and Y were double deck sheep vans. I am unsure of the differences. Presumably one type was the four compartment version (four doors per side) while the other was the two compartment version. The diagrams show different lengths but don't show the different door arrangements. Peter Tatlow has drawn Jones and Drummond versions of the sheep vans but I have held off building models as I haven't found early enough photographs to confirm the details of the Jones vans. With all the vertical iron bars they will not be quick to build. The following image is part of the same photograph of Kyle shown above. It shows part of one of the two compartment vans on the left and two of the four compartment vans, together with the portable timber ramps used to load and unload the upper decks. The previous photo shows more in the train at the platform. I think these are all Jones design wagons but stand to be corrected.
I haven't found any reference to a Type Z, so that completes the alphabet, apart from the specials in the middle of the alphabet which I will put together a short post on. Then to goods brake vans, a subject which should be straight forward but there are some significant anomalies in the published information that make things more interesting.
Reaching Type T means that we are entering territory where my knowledge is hazy to say the least. Type T were Meat Vans, 17'6" long x 8' wide on an 11' wheelbase. That is just about the limit of my knowledge. Hopefully, Peter Tatlow's forthcoming book will reveal all. There are a couple of vans in the background of photos which could be Type T Meat Vans but I am not sure.
Type U Cattle wagons are easier as they appear in quite a few photographs and Peter Tatlow's drawing is available from the Highland Railway Society. I was going to say that they were designed by Jones, but they may not have been as they were amongst the earliest wagon stock on the Highland, however the 1870s photographs show vehicles with Jones characteristic details and dimensions.
Three Type U cattle wagons on the pier at Strome Ferry during the 1870s. Evidently loading cattle onto Ferret, with the shunting horse just visible next to the lamp post on the pier.
A partial view of a Type U van at Aberfeldy, also during the 1870s. Note the height and width of the HR cattle wagon in comparison with the vans on the adjacent siding which I think might be North British stock. I haven't analysed it in any detail but it seems that during the 19th Century the larger the railway company, the less it spent per wagon. So it was common for a smaller railway with 2,000 or so wagons to have larger, more advanced wagons than than a larger railway company with tens or hundreds of thousands of wagons.
And one in a train at Kyle of Lochalsh, circa 1900.
This is part of a published photo (in Lambert) of part of a Type U cattle wagon, included as it shows some of the detail more clearly. I should get a scan of the original photo to make things much clearer. Note the upper doors extend only high enough to carry the horizontal bar across the opening. Also Jones style buffers.
I can't show you a model photo as I haven't built any yet. But having looked at them in more detail for this post I think that I now have enough information to get on with it.
There was also a Type V cattle wagon which was slightly shorter and narrower. I am not sure if Type V was a Drummond design as they have quite high numbers, but probably not as Drummond usually rebuilt wagons to his design without apparently changing the type designation or diagram.
Type W was the Valuable Cattle Wagon which I can't illustrate. Their high number block suggests they were built during the 1890s so are after my main period of interest so I haven't looked too hard. But if anyone else can I would like to see them.
Types X and Y were double deck sheep vans. I am unsure of the differences. Presumably one type was the four compartment version (four doors per side) while the other was the two compartment version. The diagrams show different lengths but don't show the different door arrangements. Peter Tatlow has drawn Jones and Drummond versions of the sheep vans but I have held off building models as I haven't found early enough photographs to confirm the details of the Jones vans. With all the vertical iron bars they will not be quick to build. The following image is part of the same photograph of Kyle shown above. It shows part of one of the two compartment vans on the left and two of the four compartment vans, together with the portable timber ramps used to load and unload the upper decks. The previous photo shows more in the train at the platform. I think these are all Jones design wagons but stand to be corrected.
I haven't found any reference to a Type Z, so that completes the alphabet, apart from the specials in the middle of the alphabet which I will put together a short post on. Then to goods brake vans, a subject which should be straight forward but there are some significant anomalies in the published information that make things more interesting.
Overseer
Western Thunderer
Type L timber wagon addendum
In the post on Type L timber wagons I commented that I wasn't aware of any photographs of the wagons with loads but looking at a better copy of one of the Blair Atholl 1870s photographs I realised that several appear loaded with logs.
A couple on the right of the image. It is not clear if the logs overhang from one wagon to the next. Stanchions in place. The blobby wagon loads to the left, probably hay, would also make interesting models.
And another in the background. For non-Highland modellers the carriages in the foreground might look unusual - they have the white canvas sheets in place covering the sides. HR carriage sheets were used to cover the ends and south side of carriages during summer to reduce paint fading and deterioration while in sidings. Third class carriages usually didn't get the special treatment.
In the post on Type L timber wagons I commented that I wasn't aware of any photographs of the wagons with loads but looking at a better copy of one of the Blair Atholl 1870s photographs I realised that several appear loaded with logs.
A couple on the right of the image. It is not clear if the logs overhang from one wagon to the next. Stanchions in place. The blobby wagon loads to the left, probably hay, would also make interesting models.
And another in the background. For non-Highland modellers the carriages in the foreground might look unusual - they have the white canvas sheets in place covering the sides. HR carriage sheets were used to cover the ends and south side of carriages during summer to reduce paint fading and deterioration while in sidings. Third class carriages usually didn't get the special treatment.
Wagonman
Western Thunderer
Some Scottish wagons had discs over their spoked wheels to inhibit the use of sprags. Did the Highland do that?
Richard
S
SteveO
Guest
Cracking thread only just investigated. Admire the lengths you go into research. Where do you find the material?
Overseer
Western Thunderer
No, the Highland didn't bolt disks onto spoked wheels. The disks seem to mostly appear on private traders wagons.