2mm Holywell Town.

[John D]

Adrian,
There's a very informative article (illustrated) on the branch in British Railway Journal no.40 (1992) in which it gives an account of the working of the goods trains. Seemingly these were propelled up the branch to Holywell Town with the loco at the rear, and had brake vans at either end of the train. I think they used Coal Tanks for both passenger and freight which may explain the brake vans at both ends as the CT's were not exactly renown for their brake power on un-fitted stock. I'm sure I've seen it somewhere that (perhaps in LMS days) 0-6-0 Coal engines worked the goods trains.
Capacity of the goods yard was 21 wagons , goods trains ran into the run round loop , the engine then running up the platform road to the headshunt end and shunting the wagons from there.
The gradient post by the bridge gives the line up at 1:27 and the station area at 1:260, if you want to get the trackwork spot on the LNWR Society sell photocopies of the 1909 and 1916 P/Way books (include track/point diagrams and other stuff eg bufferstops ,point levers etc), to members and non-members
As to the headshunt, the real thing only held the loco, I replicated this on my 'Alexandra Yard' layout albeit using a Crewe Goods tank which is a tad smaller than a Coal tank. Made operating the layout a bit more 'interesting' as like Holywell Town, it was only two sidings and a run round so you really had to think what you were doing
In all Holywell Town is a cracking little set up , done properly would be an exhibition highlight

 

[John D]

Looking at the LNW c1900 'postcard' photo the line seems to com up at 1:27 , then 1:260 at the start of the station and then seems to go downhill i.e. sort of a 'hump'. There's a second gradient post which, unfortunately is sideways on , but from the position of the nearest arm it would indicate a fall in the gradient towards the headshunt bufferstop. I could of course be a distortion caused by the lens of the plate camera.

AND....have also spotted that you knew of the BRJ article all along.....DOH!!

 

[Osgood]

In what period will your creation be set, Adrian?

I am another one who has often pondered Rice's Anglesey designs in his Light Railway book, and who has previously spent several holidays just up from Red Wharf Bay (and who was there when rail interests were dormant, and had no idea these lines existed!!).

 

[adrian]

this gets more interesting - LNWR interlaced turnouts,

Yes the turnout in the yard and the one in the headhunt appear to be interlaced between the switch and the crossing but the crossings are not interlaced - was this the LNWR version of interlacing? The middle turnout with the catch (trap?) points doesn't appear to show any interlacing.

The gradient post by the bridge gives the line up at 1:27 and the station area at 1:260, if you want to get the trackwork spot on the LNWR Society sell photocopies of the 1909 and 1916 P/Way books (include track/point diagrams and other stuff eg bufferstops ,point levers etc), to members and non-members

Looking at the LNW c1900 'postcard' photo the line seems to com up at 1:27 , then 1:260 at the start of the station and then seems to go downhill i.e. sort of a 'hump'.

Thanks for the heads up on the LNWR Society P/Way books - I'll follow it up.

There is another booklet I have "The Tramways and Railways to Holywell" by J.R.Thomas which covers the earlier tramways and the development of the railway with lots of interesting details. It was worked on the system of single engine in steam so I suspect the one loco would do everything. The branch line was a shade over 1-1/2 miles, journey time 10 minutes, In 1922 timetabled 19 trips daily and 2 extra on Saturday. It did switch between the 2-4-2T and the 0-6-2T finishing with the Ivatt 2-6-2T. The other stipulation with the freight in addition to the top and tailing with the brake vans was that the maximum length was 3 loaded wagons or 5 empty wagons.

As for the gradients then yes it is marked at 1:260 through the station but then kicks up at 1:50 through the turnouts and is level in the headshunt.

The following diagram is from a LNWR 1914 survey and shows the gradient posts.

 

[adrian]

In what period will your creation be set, Adrian?

Not too sure at the moment. The line opened in 1912 and the last passenger service was in 1954. I'm currently leaning towards the mid to late 1920's era. Although I'm tempted by Richards suggestion of building in the proposed tunnel and extension and hiding it behind the wall and potentially running a fictitious diesel era as well. Diesels were actually proposed at one point to extend the economic life of the line, there was another earlier proposal (1902) for electrification for the line making it an overhead tramway!

 

[Dog Star]

Yes the turnout in the yard and the one in the headhunt appear to be interlaced between the switch and the crossing but the crossings are not interlaced - was this the LNWR version of interlacing?

Thanks for the heads up on the LNWR Society P/Way books - I'll follow it up.

The picture shows one form of interlacing, another has the interlaced timbers in that part of the turnout where the stock and switch/closure rails are supported with narrow chairs. If you are setting the time period as circa 1912 then I feel that the LNWR would have stopped using 14" wide timbers throughout a turnout and used 12" timbering for a new piece of work. Maybe the interlaced timbering shown in the photo was the PW office feeling its way with the recent changes in turnout practice.

Whilst I have not seen the LNWR PW books mentioned earlier I understand that the books are based upon copies of the standard layouts / parts catalogues of 1909 and 1916 so the 1909 version is the more suitable for you. Just do not expect to see references to "A", "B", ... switches as everything is given in imperial measurements,

 

[ScottW]

Superb! I have always liked this location and looking forward to watching this progress.

 

[Osgood]

I managed to track down a copy of BRJ 40 which arrived today, a nice article. I like the very unusual geometry of the bridge, exacerbated by the differing heights of running line and goods yard - it will certainly be a great centrepiece!

Surprisingly, despite the encroachment of the town, the bridge seems to have survived, and the station site and railway line looks to be a public park. The big white mass immediately west of the bridge is a supermarket. The line runs down the valley in a north-west direction from the bridge. The ground level view is the only one available from streetview thingy - viewed from north of the bridge and goods yard.



Edit: Mmm, a simple google image search of Holywell station would have saved me some time, - some really good views of the bridge as it is today

 

[Scale7JB]

How are you progressing Adrian....?

I have to admit, were it me, I'd be knee deep in baseboards I think. Really is an exciting project!

JB.

 

[geoff_nicholls]

If you're taking votes on which period I vote for pre 1914. According to a book I have, the push pull service used two converted picnic saloons and a small tank engine. Someone is restoring a picnic saloon at Quainton Road, so you can check them out.

 

[adrian]

Superb! I have always liked this location and looking forward to watching this progress.

I have to admit, were it me, I'd be knee deep in baseboards I think. Really is an exciting project!

Thanks for all the feedback - it seems to have generated an awful lot of interest - no pressure at all then.

I've got all the wood for the baseboards, cut to the various necessary widths but I'm having to rejig my workroom a bit so that I can squeeze it in for working on, but I am keen to get cracking on it.

Also I've been juggling how to arrange the track because that will be critical in cutting the board for the different levels and the approach gradient and sorting out viewing angle. One of the popular photos has been taken from the top of the retaining wall looking down the length of the station. I was keen to have this as one of the viewing angles so this is what I have settled on.


So the exit to the left should drop down into the trees and disappear but the righthand side is left open for viewing.

If you're taking votes on which period I vote for pre 1914.

Given that the line wasn't opened until 1st. July 1912 that's a very small timescale!! Out of interest which book references the picnic saloons? The Tramways and Railways of Holywell mention the two picnic saloons and a Webb 2-4-2T 2619 for the opening day. However then it mentions a 2 coach set 42' x 8' 6" all third motor set, which I believe was arc roof stock. Later on it mentions a 50' and 57' all thirds. I'm just looking through suppliers at the moment to see what coach kits are available.

I must admit apart from the luggage lift disappearing at some point very little changed, so yes my current preference is aiming for the pre-grouping period and then with modellers license run later stock as rule 1 applies.

 

[geoff_nicholls]

my book is "The North Wales Coast Railway" by Peter E Baughan published in 1988 by Martin Bairstow. It says
"the service was intensive, carrying local workers and townspeople and their produce from woollen mill and paper factory, as well as the annual influx of tourists. For some years it was worked by a small tank engine and two converted picnic saloons - what the LNWR called a motor train"
I've just googled his name and found he wrote the Regional history for north Wales Vol 11, which is also on my bookshelf. He makes the same statement about the picnic saloons in that book, adding that there were 16 weekday trains each way. There is no indication of the source of that information.

 

[adrian]

Thanks for that - I've a copy ordered now. I've seen one photo which I believe shows the two picnic saloons but I can't find any more details. The other references mention all 3rd 42' converted to a motor train, the tramway book mentions coaches 2129A and 2136A. It also publishes various timetables ranging from 19 daily trains (2 extra on Saturday) down to only 9 trains a day towards the end.

 

[Simon Glidewell]

A lovely location Adrian, which must have had bucolic charm by the bucket load in its day. Forgive me if you've already mentioned this, but what scale/gauge are you going to build the layout in?

 

[adrian]

A lovely location Adrian, which must have had bucolic charm by the bucket load in its day. Forgive me if you've already mentioned this, but what scale/gauge are you going to build the layout in?

Thanks Simon - I deliberately didn't mention scale/gauge, curious to see what people thought about the plan. The thing is all my postings on this forum to date has been Scale7 so I dare say a few have just assumed this is Scale7. However congratulations are in order as you are the first to ask that question.

So this photo is known in my wife's line of work (Forensic Scientist) as an FBC*.


So yes it will be 2mmFS - but keep it quiet otherwise I'll never hear the last of it from Jerry.

I think the interest was sparked from Steve Sykes's thread
http://www.westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/steves-sporadic-2mm-stuff.3901/

The wagons were very impressive and I thought I would have a go and see if my clumsy fingers could manage. There was also the realisation that until I could ship my lads off to college/uni then I wouldn't have room for my Scale7 layout plans. I worked out that with a bit of musical chairs in my work room then I could fit in a small 2mmFS layout which is where I am now. I reckon the plan above in 2mmFS is going to work out at 5' x 18".

So the Christmas break was spent building a small test track and a couple of wagons and I really enjoyed doing something different.

A couple of the other wagons on the workbench.






Still need to sort out more wheels, buffers and couplings but I'm still finding my way around the 2mmFS stores.

Finally a big thanks is due to Mike Turner who has helped me enormously with additional plans, so I now have dimensional information on various track radii, platform sizes, wall dimensions, even the incline (1 in 8) for the footpath down to the station! There is also some useful date information, I now know that the extension on the Station building was done in 1921 and the additional waiting shelter was installed in 1937. So I think I'm focussing in now on the early 1920's era.



*FBC a.k.a. F***ing Big Clue!

 

[Steve Cook]

10 out of 10 for a blind side move there Adrian
Didn't spot that one coming at all!
Something else to watch with interest - it always was a lovely idea, its now very compact to boot.
Steve

 

[Simon Glidewell]

Very nice work Adrian; my eyesight just couldn't handle building these tiny models, but I can see the appeal very clearly when building a real location.

All the best
Simon

 

[Dikitriki]

Yep, I had assumed S7 too. 2mm finescale is a very interesting choice. I really like some of the models being produced these days, and I can see myself doing a L&Y 2-4-2 sometime.

Will you have to scratchbuild the motive power?

Richard

 

[Dan Randall]

it will be 2mmFS

Bugger! I was looking forward to running my Western on it at a future Telford.

No matter, I'm still looking forward to watching the build.


Regards

Dan

 

[SimonT]

Excellent! I've messed around with some 2mm FS with Pete Kirmond and found building a GWR PBV rather relaxing and very tempting. This is one to watch.

Simon