LNWR chairs for G3 and G1 an experiment

unklian

Western Thunderer
I wondered if any body else on WT got excited about this level of finickyness with track work ?!!

So I thought you guys would like to see what Mike Williams and I have been up to ( and with his approval of course ). Mike had some very nice 3D prints done of LNWR chairs and he tasked me with casting a small quantity in order to make a few lengths of track to display models on. I used the prints to make silicone moulds and then cast the chairs in resin ( the beige ones in the pictures ). The 'fun' bit was turning them into metal. The three bolt heads caused the biggest problem as, with the pattern orientated to cast the gap for the rail, they created a nasty undercut. You may be able to see where this has torn out on the left hand chair in the close up of the G3 assembled sample. Strangely this hasn't cause such a problem with the G1 ones so far. One solution I have tried now with a second go at the G3 ones is to leave off one bolt head and lead the split line through the other two. Which has worked but now the missing bolt head has to be added separately. The process for casting in resin allows for a much more flexible mould and so I have left the bigger end chairs in resin for now. We are assuming of course that resin chairs would not be strong enough for general use.RIMG4589.JPG RIMG4594.JPG RIMG4591.JPG

This last picture is the Gauge 1 castings .

So any thoughts or ideas, anyone else looking for a small quantity of company specific chairs ? I am probably sticking my neck out here, but please don't expect me to make thousands straight away. Or is there a much simpler type of chair out there ?
 

geoff_nicholls

Western Thunderer
It's a nice idea, but low down on my list of priorities.
they will look exactly like the real thing, when painted, but they're not the sort of thing people would notice unless their attention is drawn to them. You could do this in a diorama perhaps by including other permanent way features like point rodding, or contrasting it with some of the fishbelly rail like that at Cromford.
However you choose to do it, they should definitely be on display in public.
 

Simon

Flying Squad
They look really nice Ian.

I'm nearly done in the garden, using Cliff Barker components, but can imagine using the quality of chairs you are producing on an indoor "cameo" type model.

I think you are right about the resin, Paul Abrams tried using resin cast chairs on his garden line and I believe he ended up replacing them all.

Company-wise I guess it'd have to be S&DJR:)

Simon
 

jamiepage

Western Thunderer
They do look very good indeed, Ian. I've always imagined chairs to be tricky little devils to produce, and a herculean labour in any kind of quantity.

The M&SWJR also had 3 bolt chairs- check. Outside keyed- check.
Unfortunately the 2 bolts were outside.
Alternatively, they had previously used inside keys.

I do have a copy of the original drawing for their later chairs, and would snap up a few.
 

Stoke5D

Western Thunderer
Interesting, I didn't know the LNWR had their own version of the S1 Chair.

When I used to volunteer on a heritage railway I started out on the PWay gang and remember once relaying a siding with recovered LNWR 85Lb track which used their classic 'four bolt' chair with two spikes and two bolts as per this photo (from the RCTS Photographic Archive):

GGR0067CVF.jpg

In the larger scales, I think you would be able to tell the difference between 85lb rail and fittings and the 95lb version, you certainly can on the real thing once it's pointed out to you, not to mention the sleeper length difference. So if you wanted the pre-grouping look (or just typical sidings almost up to the present day), then it's something to think about.


Andrew
 

Mike W

Western Thunderer
You are quite right Andrew that much of the LNWR main line used 4-bolt chairs in later days. One reason for choosing the 3-bolt was to make them more different from the only commercially available chairs in Gauge 3 - from Cliff Barker. It was modelled from Crewe drawings and various examples I have at home.

Mike
 

unklian

Western Thunderer
Thanks for all the likes and nice comments chaps. I have to confess to being a bit of a chair spotter/obsessive, I have a few full size ones dotted round my garden.

So no need for any GER chairs yet then Geoff ?

Did the S&DJR have their own design or did they follow Midland practice Simon ?

You will have to copy that drawing for me sometime Jamie

It is interesting to note that what seems to be called an S1 is very much the most standard. I believe these were adopted by the Big Four as a standard, and I have examples branded for the LNER, LMS and BR. Looking at the track on the Gloucester Warwickshire Railway today they were all over the place. Here's an LMS one from my collection ...
RIMG4644.JPG

The GWR was probably the one that stuck to its own design of 2 bolt chair for a long time, this it bolted to wooden and concrete sleepers.

RIMG4646.JPG

This one is actually fixed down with the wrong bolts, it should have bolts passed up from underneath with square nuts on top, oops !

Thank you Andrew Stoke5D for the info on LNWR 4 bolt chairs, and .....

You are quite right Andrew that much of the LNWR main line used 4-bolt chairs in later days. One reason for choosing the 3-bolt was to make them more different from the only commercially available chairs in Gauge 3 - from Cliff Barker. It was modelled from Crewe drawings and various examples I have at home.

Mike

That's interesting, I had realised that Cliff's Gauge 3 chairs were modelled on Midland Railway practice, but I had not realised that the LNWR or anyone else had used 4 bolt chairs apart from so called Bridge chairs .

But back to modelling and casting them, the S1 will be a swine ( unless I leave the bolt heads off ) , the GWR 2 bolt would be relatively easy and then there's this French 2 bolt version with heavy ribs :eek:

Ian

PS has anyone had any dealings with 'Off the Rails' products on Shapeways ??
 
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Stoke5D

Western Thunderer
You are quite right Andrew that much of the LNWR main line used 4-bolt chairs in later days. One reason for choosing the 3-bolt was to make them more different from the only commercially available chairs in Gauge 3 - from Cliff Barker. It was modelled from Crewe drawings and various examples I have at home.

Mike

I didn't mean any criticism, I understand your excellent reasons for choosing this type. I was prompted to mention the more typical LNWR chair due to my semi-professional acquaintance with it...

It does prompt me to expand on my point about seeing supposedly long obsolete track materials like this in recent everyday use, as we seldom see this modeled. If you look at even the best layouts, they typically have all of the trackwork in a uniform 95lb BH S1 wooden sleeper form (GWR/WR excepting of course). While a glance at photo's of the real thing over the last fifty years (which is the timespan we are mostly modeling) may show pre-grouping, post grouping and post nationalisation varieties of BH, FB rail, multitudinous chair types, concrete and wood sleepers etc. track, all co-existing happily in different roles. I shall certainly be considering this in my forthcoming work.

Oh no, thread hijack!


Andrew
 

Mike W

Western Thunderer
Andrew's photo also shows what I believe to be an LNWR peculiarity - chairs have two wood screws and two treenails. Note the small pip on the top of each screw so the foreman could tell it had been correctly screwed in rather than bashed in with a hammer!

I guess this isn't the right place, but I think some central repository for photos of chairs would be interesting. But then Denise says most railway enthusiasts have O.C.D.

Mike
 

geoff_nicholls

Western Thunderer
One point that has escaped comment so far is the creation of white metal castings without going via brass. I'd like to hear more about that.

Also, and more contentiously, having made all that effort to produce dead accurate chairs would you still produce turnouts to G3 soc standards, or give G3 finescale ( P22:6 ?) a try, as it's for a diorama?
 

unklian

Western Thunderer
I use the Alec Tiranti Centricast system for whitemetal casting. This uses cold cure silicon rubber moulds. Most commercial whitemetal casters use heat vulcanised rubber moulds which are much stronger and last much better. For the former the patterns can be anything non porous within reason. For the latter patterns have to be heat proof up to 400-500 Centigrade, which means metal ( usually brass ) and preferably silver soldered, although you can get away with high melting point lead solder if you are careful. Some commercial casters are not very careful !

So far the chairs are only intended for lengths of plain track as a display. You will note no check rail chairs have been made so far, and so the contentious check rail gap dimension has not been encountered .;)
 

Simon

Flying Squad
Having said S&DJR, my line (garden) is mostly (in my imagination) LSWR, albeit all using Cliff Barker's lovely models of GER chairs on plain line and BR 3 bolt on S&C work:rolleyes:

That said, I would be interested in a certain quantity of whatever you might make as I'd like to make the track at the ends of the sidings at Launceston Road in something that looked older, very much with the thoughts expressed by Andrew above. As an aside I very much agree with Andrews point about how track is modelled in general, although in my own defence a garden railway requires "getting on with it", using what is readily available.

I remember in the late Seventies exploring the up loop at Bathampton and being surprised to find some LSWR chairs in use. I think that bullhead has only recently been eliminated from the location , so maybe they were there into the 21st Century.

So the more antiquated and funky looking the better!

BUT please make them suitable for use with Cliff's code 180 rail and not that code 200 rubbish.

Apologies for track foot pedantry:p

Simon
 

unklian

Western Thunderer
So after a quick bit of 'research' ( google ) it would appear that LSWR chair design was similar to S&DJR, SECR and MSWJR . All using outside keys with two bolts outside and one on the inside . See the drawing Jamie has posted, thank you Jamie . Perhaps they all used the same foundry ? Trouble is what scale to make them, I guess I will have to do both scales again .
As to Cliffs Code 200 Simon, I know what you mean about the foot, but I have been using it along with his 'orrible 2 bolt chairs for that 19th century style buried sleeper track look. In G3 as well the general coarseness is not apparent. I will have to acquire some code 180 at some point .RIMG0508 lr.jpg

And BTW I think we can welcome any kind of thread hi-jacking and pedantry in a thread like this ....:thumbs:
 

unklian

Western Thunderer
I have...

...or should that be "I am"?

Oh Wow, straight from the horses mouth as it were. Two questions , do you only sell prints of your chairs and bits, and can you do them in other scales than 7mm ? I think you might guess what scales I am thinking of !

Many thanks Ian
 

S-Club-7

Western Thunderer
Two questions , do you only sell prints of your chairs and bits, and can you do them in other scales than 7mm ? I think you might guess what scales I am thinking of !
Unfortunately "other scales" is not just a case of rescaling the 3d-drawing since each model rail section that I've looked at so far is non-scale in some way or other. The use of a different material (i.e. less expensive) also requires adjustments to the model to ensure that it can be printed successfully.

Next time I'm at the virtual drawing board I'll try a simple rescaling to 1/32, 10mm/ft and 13.5mm/ft to see the issues that'll need considering (e.g. non-scale flangeways in check rail chairs).
 

Stoke5D

Western Thunderer
One for Simon:

upload_2016-9-5_9-57-45.png

As seen at the Mangapps Farm museum, which if you are interested in Chairs (or almost anything else railwayana wise) is definitely worth a visit if you are over that way. Eclectic doesn't do it justice...


Andrew
 
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