Mk1 Resources And Parts

[Dog Star]

... under BRs ownership symmetrical Vee hangers were used on the early BR bogied Mk1's (which had unequalised brakegear). Asymmetrical Vee hangers were used - from around 1954 - on Mk1s with BR bogies that were fitted with equalised brakegear...

Bob, thinking about this comment a bit more - I read the text as saying that BR1 bogies with equalised brake gear were introduced circa 1954. Further, I think that the text says that any carriage with "equalised" bogies was built with asymmetric V-hangers. Fine on both of those statements.

What is the possibility that any new coach lots were ordered after 1954 which were built with "non-equalised" bogies? (ie. the equalised an non-equalised designs were built in parallel)

regards, Graham

 

[Bob Reid]

Graham,

See my message for the answer to this - it's a wee bit more complex on the bogie front unfortunately!

[Edit] for anyone else, here was message content;

I wish there was a straightforward answer Graham! Most books confuse the issue by calling them BR1 & BR2 (basically ascribing the axlebox type (BR1 light or BR2 / BR2a heavy) to the bogie type. There were actually only three basic types;

8’-6” Single Bolster Bogie
8’-6” Light Double Bolster Bogie
8’-6” Heavy Double Bolster Bogie

In general the books usually refer to the first two as BR1 and the last as BR2 - now it all goes to pot. The three basic types were produced in different versions (ignoring the EMU varieties) ;

In actual fact the BR "standard" bogie types were (with the exception of the single bolster bogie) produced in three versions.

Original Design;

8’-6” Single Bolster Bogie
8’-6” Light Double Bolster Bogie
8’-6” Heavy Double Bolster Bogie

Mark II

8’-6” Light Double Bolster Bogie
8’-6” Heavy Double Bolster Bogie

Mark II for Compensated Brake

8’-6” Light Double Bolster Bogie
8’-6” Heavy Double Bolster Bogie

It would take too long Graham to describe all these and there applications in detail. You're best bet what be to look through the archives of the BR Coaching Stock Yahoo Group - there was a lot of discussion about it not that long ago and there's also three files available - one from me, giving the bogie types and two from David Hatt, with images of the bogies and another which has details of there use on the individual vehicle lots.

Sorry there's no straightforward answer!

Bob.

 

[Dog Star]

Marsa has asked for some photographs of the air-brake equipment which was / is fitted to Mk.1 coaches. I have about a dozen photos to post here, I shall do so in small groups so as to enable other WT members to add comments and interpretations of the details.

All of the photos that I shall post here were taken on 18th December 2012 at Winchcombe station on the Gloucestershire and Warwickshire Railway. The subjects were standing in the C&W sidings and I asked for / was given permission to walk down the lines. There was no public service on the day in question and the station was closed. The condition of the stock suggests that the carriages are yet to be made serviceable and may have been purchased for spares..... hence some photographs show underframes with details missing. The photographs are of more than one coach, I did not record the carriage number / build details.


This photo illustrates an air-brake cylinder mounted below the underframe trusses - the carriage did not have a brake cross-shaft, see the group of three holes which would have been used for fixing the shaft bearing.



I think that this photograph may show the air reservoir. There is fitting / pipe missing from the top RHS of the photo, hopefully someone can comment.



The other end of the tank in the previous photo, which shows that the missing fitting is associated with the tank. The photo shows that there are a few more fittings associated with this tank.... top RHS, centre LHS... sorry, no idea what is going on here.



regards, Graham

 

[marsa69]

Thanks Graham,

Is the air-brake tank easily visble from the lineside as on all my prototype photos, drawings of the weedkilling train only the actuators appear visible. Would it be conceivable that these coaches wouldn't have had the tanks fitted instead getting their air supply direct from the loco?

 

[Dog Star]

Is the air-brake tank easily visble from the lineside as on all my prototype photos, drawings of the weedkilling train only the actuators appear visible. Would it be conceivable that these coaches wouldn't have had the tanks fitted instead getting their air supply direct from the loco?

I am not keen to draw conclusions from the photos for there is no guarantee that the coaches at Winchcombe were complete...

 

[Dog Star]

Continuing the request for photos of Mk.1 air brake fittings...

An air-brake cylinder... no cross-shaft... a slotted link in the brake pull-rod linkage which suggests that the carriage had been dual-braked (the link allows either air-brake and vacuum brake to work independently).



Closer to the bogie, the rust patch on the far truss shows where the cross-shaft support bracket was fitted whilst the rust patch to the top RHS is probably where the vacuum cylinder trunnion was fitted. Other details worthy of comment... yet more (air?) pipes and a support bracket... a support for the slotted link (I think that this link and support was added when the carriage was converted to dual brake... ). Note that the air-brake cylinder is not mounted symmetrically with respect to the trusses.



A different carriage this time... showing the linkage between the air-brake cylinder and the bogie, I have no idea as to why this linkage requires either the second joint or the thicker tube / rod at the LHS. As yet the pupose of the dished fitting (top LHS) eludes me.


regards,Graham

 

[Bob Reid]

Graham, I'm unsure if the "reply to" button reloads the images alongside the comments however if it fails I may need to re-post those with the notes. If it fails - it's my fault!

More to follow later this evening.

Bob.R

This photo illustrates an air-brake cylinder mounted below the underframe trusses - the carriage did not have a brake cross-shaft, see the group of three holes which would have been used for fixing the shaft bearing.

View attachment 16272

Spot on Graham the hanger along with the brake shaft has been removed (judging by all the missing equipment someone was recovering the expensive to replace parts)!

I think that this photograph may show the air reservoir, hopefully Bob can comment here. There is fitting / pipe missing from the top RHS of the photo, again hopefully Bob can comment.

View attachment 16273

As you say, it's the main air reservoir. What's missing from the rather brighter rusty flange, is the air brake distributor that was bolted to it.

The other end of the tank in the previous photo, which shows that the missing fitting is associated with the tank. The photo shows that there are a few more fittings associated with this tank.... top RHS, centre LHS... sorry, no idea what is going on here.

View attachment 16274

The fitting on the centre LHS is a Air Brake Test Point - the only part remaining is the (once) bright red flap that covered a Schrader connection - allowing you to plug in a test gauge

 

[Dog Star]

Continuing with photographs of Mk.1 air-brake fittings.

When the Mk.1 underframes were built there was no provision for air-brake fittings so the "necessary" had to be added when the carriages were converted to dual-brake. This photo shows the way in which the air-brake cylynder is supported within the trussing. I suspect that the cut-out in the adjacent cross-girder might be to provide clearance for the air connection to the cylinder.



This photo shows how the brake pull rod was connected to the brake yokes of the bogie... with a supported pin-joint in the pull-rod.



regards, Graham

 

[Dog Star]

Continuing with photos of Mk.1 air-brake fittings...

Apologies for posting this photo before, just fits in with the current theme. This carriage is dual heat and dual brake, hence there is a plethora of pipes and plugs...spaghetti to spare. The lower two pipes are for the air brakes, the lagged pipe is for steam heat, above the lagged pipe are electrical conduits... which just leaves one pipe running below the steam heat ( might this be the vacuum train pipe?).



For those with a nervous disposition, you might like to find a gentler thread before viewing the next image. I regret that I did not note the number and/or type of this carriage for such information might have helped to unravel the knitting. I think that the pipes leading to the box (top LHS) might be gas for I recollect the wording on the box being about "changeover" and "service".

The reason for including this photo is that:-

a) the subject was the only carriage where the air-brake cylinder was connected physically to a cross-shaft.

b) the carriage appears to have had a cross-shaft for the air-brake and a separate cross-shaft (removed) for the vacuum brake.

Hopefully someone can provide a sketch of how the air-brake and vacuum brake were connected to the bogie brake pull-rod.



And finally... the previous photo includes an air-pipe connection to the air-brake cylinder and shows how the routing of that connection might just need a cut-out in an original cross-girder. The photo below suggests that even the best laid plans of mice and Derby do not always come to fruition.



regards, Graham

 

[Bob Reid]

You don't ask much on the forum Graham

Bob.R

 

[Dog Star]

You don't ask much...

To quote anyone's Granny... "If you do not ask, you do not get".

The Mk.1s are a real case of "I assume making an ass of U and Me", the only reasonable book on the subject has/had passed by on many of the underframe details and the manufacturers seem to have done no better. Maybe I ought to take up rhubarb picking and wait for Hornby / Bachmann / Heljan to produce the definitive Mk.1 dual heat and dual brake BTSO....

And no, I do not intend to ask about the different veneers used on interiors and the engraved formica labels which were attached as appropriate.

regards, Graham

 

[adrian]

And no, I do not intend to ask about the different veneers used on interiors and the engraved formica labels which were attached as appropriate.

I presume you are penning a monograph on that very subject as we speak.

 

[Dog Star]

I presume you are penning a monograph on that very subject as we speak.

Tsk, tsk... that is not the way that the Flying Squad does things....

 

[marsa69]

Could have been worse Graham. He could have screeched in and kicked in your doors!

 

[Bob Reid]

Sorry if it's all a bit out of sequence Graham, I couldn't thing how to best cover what you were asking however;

- A bit of general information first... All of the air/dual braked Mk1s were always equipped (leaving the headstock fittings aside) with two brake cylinders (one per bogie), a Brake Distributor, an Auxiliary Reservoir c/w associated Non-return Valve an Automatic Drain Valve, a separate Passenger Communication Valve and a brake test point, and of course all of the associated pipework. The Brake Distributor is fitted with a brake isolation valve and a brake release cord.

Apart from different brakegear / brake cylinders, the same general arrangement of air brake fittings continued to be fitted in much the same layout of the MKII stock, and on the MkIIIs (albeit mostly hidden by the modules) In general the distributors were either by Westinghouse or Davies & Metcalfe.

In general (I've yet to see it any other way), the distributor, non-return valve, test point and Auxiliary Reservoir were grouped into the same standard arrangement as in this photo. Noting of course - the distributors missing (only the mounting flange is there)....



some late build Mk1s and all all Mk2s were equiped with (SAB) automatic slack adjusters which compensated automatically for brake block wear. It was inserted in the bogie pull rod between the brake shaft and the bogie as seen in these two photo's





And finally....



Apologies if I missed anything Graham, I'm still at loss to find a half decent shot of a distributor in place this was the best I could find - on a MkII but the arrangement was the same....



Bob.R

 

[iploffy]

Could have been worse Graham. He could have screeched in and kicked in your doors!

What's that He's already kicking in someones back door, He didn't waste much time

 

[Ressaldar]

Hi Graham,

many thanks for posting the photos and to Bob for the captions, the kind of information that is lacking elsewhere.

cheers

Mike

 

[Dikitriki]

The trouble is that whenever Graham does any research, I realise how poor my own efforts are

 

[Bob Reid]

And no, I do not intend to ask about the different veneers used on interiors and the engraved formica labels which were attached as appropriate.

regards, Graham

Ah but remember, post 59' builds dumped all that and replaced it with "formica" panelling......

(Now he'll be off at a tangent....!)

 

[Dog Star]

Thanks Bob for the annotation to my photos and for the explanatory text. I knew nothing of slack adjusters on Mk.1s so I have learnt something on that one. Given that the SAB was fitted to late build Mk.1s then I shall guess that the supported pin-joint in one of the photos is an original fitting. To round off the story the thread needs a photo which shows how the air-brake and vacuum brake linkages were combined before attachment to the bogie brake pull-rod. Time for a visit to another preservation site.

If there is anything to be discussed from the photos of yesterday, then it is the question about the support bracket on the right hand side of this photo:-



What has been removed from the RHS? What is hanging further back from that bracket? The bracket looks like it is attached to the near truss hence is not a support for the vacuum cylinder, I think that the piston rod from the vac cylinder is visible behind and to the left of the bracket, attached to a lever on the brake cross-shaft closer to the centre of the photo.

regards, Graham