Piercing Saws

[Steve Cook]

I know a bad workman always blames his tools, but in my case I thinks its justified. I like nearly every job or task within our hobby but I really, really hate using this ******* piercing saw.



I think they marked it export quality because it was too poor to leave in the UK I normally avoid using it like the plague, today I had no option, by this afternoon I'm ready to chuck the bugger and the job out of the window.

I need a new piercing saw. I don't want one with an adjustable frame because when that screw comes loose, its bye-bye blade. I want a good quality tool with decent ability to hold the blade - both screw fittings on this work loose over time (couple of minutes), bye-bye blade. I don't care about the name, brand, cost or colour, I just want a solid frame and a decent handle and half a chance of not eating blades at the current rate. The job is well supported, teeth face the right way for a piercing saw, the blade is selected in terms of metal thickness and I'm not rushing the cut...yet the blade parts surround me like confetti. Please can I ask what frame you use and where did you purchase yours from.

Many Thanks
Steve

PS I really am going to enjoy cutting the frame of this one in half so it can work its 'magic' no more

 

[Dog Star]

I have an Eclipse one that I was given more than forty years ago... just like yours, does fine for me. I have another one which I was given by Mr. Locomodels about ten years back (when I could not find the Eclipse one) and that is similar to yours, from Squires.

I agree with your thoughts that blades go ping far too quickly and that has caused me to check (and tighten) the tension whenever I pick the saw up to cut.

regards, Graham

 

[jamiepage]

Have used an Eclipse PS51 for years.
Just checked, and still available on ebay and elsewhere.

 

[Simon]

I too have an eclipse one which looks like yours but is utterly reliable, the blade tightening doo-waps never come loose and it tensions up nicely by pulling the frame inwards towards ones body as you nip up the frame tightening thingummy.

I bought it from a friend who was a jewellers suppliers rep almost 30 years ago - bl**dy h*ll where does the time go?

I'd either try getting a s/h eclipse or contact one of the suppliers and ask their advice, they are absolutely brilliant tools when they work, and I say that as a confirmed bodger so if you know what you are about they must be even better

Simon

 

[mickoo]

This is what I use, only use 6/0 blades, not broken one yet this year, blade tension is everything.



No brand markings but 98% sure I got it from Eileens.

 

[Neil]

Eclipse PS51 like this for me. Non adjustable, even a bodger like me can get a reasonable result with it. I paid about thirteen quid for it ten years ago so the sixteen notes for the one on e-bay seems ok.

 

[Locomodels]

I agree with Mick, blade tension is most important. Also good quality blades are worth the investment. Most of my blades, 6/0, wear out rather than break.

 

[adrian]

Another vote for Eclipse here - fixed frame. I can't abide the adjustable ones.

My blade ping rate is inversely proportional to the cost - like most things you get what you pay for. The cheaper blades are just too brittle for my liking, whereas Eclipse blades I tend to wear out before they break.

 

[Steve Cook]

Thank you all, genuinely appreciate the answers and advice - it seems that everybody but me has an Eclipse then - hopefully thats some of where I'm going wrong

Amazon have come up trumps with a PS51 at £10 inc delivery - I shall be spending the difference on more blades. I am currently I'm working my way through 6/0 blades bought from squires last weekend - I can't see any identifying markings on them. I'm assuming people try and track down eclipse blades as well?

Wearing out blades - I can but dream of that - I'm in the blades per cut territory at the moment - two more gone since I posted the question - blood pressure rising

Thanks again
Steve

 

[Neil]

.... I'm assuming people try and track down eclipse blades as well? .....

Then you'd assume wrong. I used to buy Eclipse blades but in 2011 I took a punt on an assorted set of 144 blades for £3.95 inc p+p off e-bay. I can't in all honesty say that there's any difference in the ping rate. Still loads left, I doubt I've got through a tenth of the packet.

 

[Steve Cook]

Thanks Neil - that was quite a bargain by the sounds of it
I hope pray think most of my problems are frame related, I shall report back how I get on with the new frame / old blades.
Steve

Of course there is the distinct possibility that even with a new frame and decent blades I'm still rubbish with a piercing saw

 

[Simon]

I'm assuming people try and track down eclipse blades as well?

I bought "Swiss quality" blades (2/0) with round backs which seem to work fine, better than the cheaper assortment pack I bought at the same time, all from a mail order tool and craft supplier the name of which I have unfortunately forgotten. I did start out with the eclipse blades that my friend John sold with the frame, but they eventually ran out in 2007.

Incidentally, I'd appreciate one of you non bodging clever chaps listing and explaining the different grades of blades, and their uses. I notice that someone up the thread is recommending 6/0 blades. When I tried to work it all out from the catalogue I had my brain circuits fused

I know that you need to present more than a couple of teeth to any metal you are cutting...

 

[daifly]

These might help:

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/piercingsaw.html

http://www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/jewelers_saw_blades.htm

Or 7 pages of guidance at
http://miniatures.about.com/od/toolsforminiatures/ss/jewellerssaw.htm

Dave

 

[mickoo]

No idea what blades I have, just what Eileens sell?

Steve, blade breakage tends to be down to two things, blade tension (80%) and blade type/application (20%), blades will take a lot and I mean a lot of longitudinal tension (stretching) but take very little lateral pressure, the more longitudinal tension the less chance of the blade buckling and breaking due to lateral pressure. Blade type depends on material thickness and number of teeth in contact with the material, for 0.010" then a 6/0 can be used as a direct vertical cut with care, drop to a 4/0 or 2/0...less teeth....then you need to start to angle the blade in relation to the work, all the time trying to maintain at least three teeth in contact with the material. This applies to virtually all saws, hack saws, bow saws, mitre saws and any material etc.

One other obvious observation, your teeth do point down toward the handle?, piercing saws work the opposite way to all other saws where they cut as you push away, piercing saws cut as to draw toward you or downward if using a supporting piece of wood (can't remember technical name LOL). It also pays to keep your material as firm as possible and cut as close to the underlying support as you can, sorry if your already doing all that

I think a fixed frame will resolve an awful lot of your woes

Simon, basically the higher the number the more teeth per inch the blade has, no idea why its called 6/0 or 4/0 as most other blades are marked as 32tpi or 48tpi etc.

Hope that helps.

Addendum, Daves links below explain all, supporting wooden thing is called a bench peg?.. didn't know that LOL

 

[Steve Cook]

Well, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
144 blades, 6/0 £2.85 inc delivery.
They could turn out to be made of stringy cheese, they might ping at an unbelievable rate, they might be OK.
Given I bought four sets at £2.75 a set (12 blades/set) from Squires over the weekend, I think £2.85 will probably turn out no worse...
Cheers for the nudge Neil, it was worth a look.
Simon - there is a table on that ebay page that explains the 6/0 in tpi etc
Steve

 

[Steve Cook]

Thanks Mick

I can confirm the teeth point towards the handle and the work is well supported - typically the cut is no more than 2mm away from the support (1/2" thick bit of 4" wide wood clamped to desk whilst I make a nice proper rest). My problems at the moment are coming from cutting 0.9mm thick brass sheet into strips - straight cut too with a 6/0 blade.

I have a lot of hope pinned on a new frame

Steve

 

[jamiepage]

Simon, I wouldn't pretend to be any kind of expert, but like a few of the others here have had good results from my Eclipse PS51 and a job lot of assorted blades of unknown heritage. Enough to last many lifetimes; sizes cover the spectrum from 8/0 to 4 (fine to coarse) I think, but they are all mixed up so selection is just suck it and see on each occasion.
As you say, more than a couple of teeth need to be in contact which means with a vertical blade the pitch must be less than material thickness but you'll know immediately if the pitch is too large- it jams.
Select a finer blade till it feels right. The finer the pitch, the longer a cut will take so I find it better to err towards the coarsest that will cut the required material without any hint of snagging.
The only caveat would be if the required path was particularly tortuous with very tight radii to negotiate when a finer and hence less broad blade may be better.
There must be a more scientific approach to blade selection but it wouldn't help with my box of anonymous assortments unfortunately.

 

[mickoo]

Thanks Mick

I can confirm the teeth point towards the handle and the work is well supported - typically the cut is no more than 2mm away from the support (1/2" thick bit of 4" wide wood clamped to desk whilst I make a nice proper rest). My problems at the moment are coming from cutting 0.9mm thick brass sheet into strips - straight cut too with a 6/0 blade.

I have a lot of hope pinned on a new frame

Steve

0.9mm!, well a 6/0 is not going to stand up to that for very long old chap, you need a coarser blade, which by nature should be more robust, I only use 6/0 on 0.010" and I've got some 0.020" to cut shortly and will change to a 4/0 or maybe a 2/0 for that. I think for 0.035" you really need a bigger blade, at least a 2/0 I'd say, especially for big long cuts and then maybe a 4/0 or 6/0 for fiddly detail work once the bulk has been removed with the 2/0.

Having said that and using the tables above a 2/0 with a vertical cut will only give 2.2 teeth in contact with the metal, a 4/0 will give 2.6 and a 6/0 3.0 teeth, I'd be inclined if your cutting long straight strips to go for a 2/0 and angle your saw to say 45° to get the required three teeth or close to three teeth in contact with the material. Angling the saw will also produce a longer cut and thus straighter....so the theory goes. Although I've never broken a blade yet, I've also never produced a straight cut that didn't require some work afterwards with a file to make good LOL

 

[jamiepage]

Ah, you beat me to it. 6/0 is really quite fine, too fine for that sort of thickness really. Buy an assortment Steve, and try the various sizes out. Mount them in the saw under good tension.

 

[TheSnapper]

This one is on my Christmas wish list:

http://www.suttontools.co.uk/hand-tools/saw-frames-and-blades/knew-concepts-125mm-saw-frame.html

(Anyone want a copy.....?)

Tim