1/32 Promoting Better Wheels and Track

Discussion in 'G1/32' started by David Halfpenny, 20 December 2012.

  1. Mudhen

    Mudhen Western Thunderer

    But Mick doesn't fine scale mean frames set too close together, scale splashers not covering the wheels, driving wheels intruding into the cab, fire boxes too narrow to fit between the frames.............
  2. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer


    You're a very naughty boy ;) poking the tiger like that :cool:

    You are right of course, how can some one set up stall and proclaim to model in high fidelity and then accept all of those hideous compromises, they can't; but an awful lot of people do and are comfortable with their decision. It's only when people proclaim it's not right that they become uncomfortable.

    You can of course reduce some of the issue you point out above, build engines with no splashers, engines with wide fireboxes or tank engines where the firebox base isn't seen, or more as likely, not worry about it.

    Other than a rebuilt Patriot, B1 or Black five there's nothing on my wish list that would be effected by the issues above, except maybe the small splashers on the Princess Royal.

    Of course if you model in 1:32 then those issues are not present, correct gauge track and correctly scaled stock, everything is tickety boo :p

    On the other hand, S7 is another altogether prickly fish to deal with, a fair few people I spoke to at Kettering said you have to do this and do that for S7 etc etc, now when did the tail start to wag the dog? Because I haven't been made aware of that directive :D

    That's not to say I won't ever develop for S7, I'm part of a team and if the team decides to model specifically for S7 then so be it. I'll be open and honest, one of those three 4-6-0s listed above will be investigated with an option for a pure S7 model.

    To be fair the W1 is 28mm over frame rivets, about as wide as you can get in OF and just a little narrow (1mm?) for S7. To redo the (nearly) 60 plus parts on the W1 for that extra mm isn't really viable, nor are narrower frames, if you want table top radius trains.....look elsewhere ;)

    Personally I'd rather spend the time lost on redoing all of the chassis, footplate, fireboxes and cabs to S7 on developing and converting to 1:32 if I'm honest, and I've a hunch it'd be more profitable as well....sadly.

    I suppose I should also add the personal disclaimer that these comments are my own and may not be the views or official line in any way sense or form of any other associations I have with parties present or absent :thumbs:

    Last edited: 8 March 2017
  3. Simon

    Simon Flying Squad

    Hi David

    I don't expect anything from G1MRA and am not really feeling any strong feelings of disappointment, sadness or frustration. I don't think things ever were "on course" in the context of the wider discussion, and based upon my own experiences I think that you ascribe too much goodwill to G1MRA in this context.

    I suspect that what they ought to do is to re-visit the "Standard standard" and issue some sensible guidance in the form of a redefined standard and tell the membership to get on with it. As you say, ScaleOne32 is already listed as a standard which is fine. What would be really useful though would be, for example, having some insulated wagon wheels produced which were to Scaleone32 standards, and then publicising the fact through the newsletter. Peartree could oblige at what is really a very reasonable cost.

    As far as Dave Hammersley's wheels are concerned, I have already purchsased quite a lot of them and may well buy more. One interesting aspect of his experience is that he has sold more of the Scale wheels than either of the other two profiles he produced. As to who told him he'd sell lots, well it wasn't me!!

    And without wishing to sound more cheesed off than I am, while the following

    may very well be a fair description of the man, I am afraid it does not excuse his comment.

    Particularly as he committed it to print whilst writing in his capacity as the new editor of the official newsletter of G1MRA and in his very first editorial to boot.

    It is interesting that although this comment was picked up on over on Matt Scrutton's (very nice) G1MRA Facebook page, Peter has as yet not seen fit to respond, despite being a frequent visitor and contributor.

  4. David Halfpenny

    David Halfpenny Western Thunderer

    Firstly, Chris, thank you for those stunning photos!

    This thread is about gathering the Seekers and supporting the Faithful, not preaching to the Converted, shaming the Heretics, or messing with anybody's sacred Rule 1 :)

    I'm sure the bulk of G1MRA members are more interested in playing trains than in either Standards or Realism. But because of my old job, people keep bringing me their running problems, which fingers the faulty Standards. And it would be daft to discuss those without mentioning the standards that actually do work. Thus I'm constantly hearing from people who are either curious about what 'Finescale' might be, or (like Richard) already passionately committed to getting as close to it as possible.

    I have a hunch that even more would be interested (if only they knew about it), and would commit (if only they felt they'd get support). And I'm prepared to put some welly into the matter.

  5. SimonT

    SimonT Western Thunderer

    S7 doesn't have to be sack cloth and ashes! As I will need to get rid of my stuff at some point there will be little point in selling to a market of two men and a whippet. Other than half a handfull of locos (One isn't finished), all can be converted back to FS. Yes, the poor kit designers who delibrately thin splasher widths need to be ignored. I use the widest FS spacers, brakes are held out by spacers that can be changed for one's suitable for FS and the clearances against cylinders,etc will only get better in the conversion. Does a gap between the wheels worry me? No. Do I get proper running? Yes. The last outing of Aberbeeg saw only one falling off and that was due to operator error running against a mis-set point (He was made to buy a round, and then I bought a round, and then someone else....hic!).
    There is compromise in everything we do in railway modelling, it is meerly the level of compromise that is the gift of each individual.
    Wagonman, daifly and adrian like this.
  6. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Yes, I get that and clearly you do as well, but a staunch few in S7 do not and insist on everything being just so. Like yourself a small gap between wheels and frame would not overly concern me..... if I were to embrace S7. But when displaying such items it's often pointed out the frames are too narrow and that entertains a following conversation to which I can't be bothered with any more frankly.

  7. Ian@StEnochs

    Ian@StEnochs Western Thunderer

    There is an awful lot of rubbish spouted about S7, mostly by folk who haven't done anything in S7!

    I have just run a vernier over a couple of my locos, JLTRT Royal Scot, 29.3 mm over frames, Scratch built 4-4-0 30 mm over frames. Both go round my test track with 6' curves!

    Wagonman likes this.
  8. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Ian, I modeled in S7 for a few years, didn't achieve much except a rebuild of a DA A3 (not completely finished) and A1 tender, so I've a rough idea of the problems and arguments :cool:
    The biggest being frame width and that's down to personal taste or what's available without too much reworking.

    Last edited: 9 March 2017
  9. Ian@StEnochs

    Ian@StEnochs Western Thunderer

    I have built more than 50 locos in S7, some from kits but most from scratch, since I moved from P4 to 7mm scale. I also built an S7 layout which did the exhibition circuit for about 8 years until I got fed up with the grind. Frame width is an issue, more so with kits designed for O gauge standards, but far outweighed by the easy of scratch building straight from the GA. The true scale modeller, of whatever scale, will always have issues with kits designed for compromised wheel and track standards. The Broad gauge society got it right by adopting S7 standards but then that is a minority interest.
  10. David Halfpenny

    David Halfpenny Western Thunderer

    My NMRA wheel profiling tool has just hit the doormat.
    1 Radprofil-Drehmeißel Spur1 6x4 RP25 Code175 Roco Radsatz scale lathe cutting | eBay

    It's closer to Roxey ScaleOne32 than to G1MRA Fine:

    1 Stück HSS Radprofil-Drehmeißel Spur1 MNRA RP 25 CODE 175
    Drehling vierkant Breite 6,0 Höhe 4,0 Länge 95mm beidseitig angeschliffen 6x4x95
    Ges. Profilbreite 5mm (Radscheibenbreite)
    Spurkranzhöhe 1,15mm
    Lauffläche 3°
    Spurkranzbreite 1,2mm
    Hohlkehlenradius 0,60mm
    EUR 32 mit porto

    1 piece HSS wheel profile turning tool Gauge 1 MNRA RP 25 CODE 175
    Blank Width 6.0 Height 4.0 Length 95mm, profiles ground on both ends
    Overall profile width 5mm (wheel disc width)
    Flange depth 1.15mm
    Tread cone angle 3 °
    Flange width 1.2mm
    Root radius 0.60mm
    £28 delivered from Germany

    My micrometer is happy with those figures.

    It would cut ScaleOne32 flanges in two passes plus a whisk with a Swiss file. That's actually sounder (and will last longer) than trying to force a ScaleOne32 form tool to cut the whole flange in a single pass. Leaving one's ScaleOne32 form tool unsullied, to use as a Check Gauge.

    Wagonman likes this.
  11. JimG

    JimG Western Thunderer

    I've just done a doodle in AutoCAD using a DXF out of Templot to scheme out a Universal turnout for Gauge 1.


    I've decided that swinging wing rails rather than a swinging nose might be the better bet. The wing rail/closure rail assembly is pivoted at the cross on the timber to the left. All the flangeways are 3mm to pass the G1 Standard wheels. Of course, the check rails are superfluous , but are included to make the turnout look correct. :) There will be breaks in the closure rails at the pivot point. This means that the crossing can be isolated easily for two rail electrification.

    It doesn't look too bad on the drawing. I thought the displacement of the unused wing rail might look a bit unsightly. I think putting the pivot point well away from the crossing nose helps in this.

    Last edited: 15 March 2017
    Steve Cook, mickoo and jamiepage like this.
  12. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad

    Keeping more than an eye on this:):thumbs:
  13. David Halfpenny

    David Halfpenny Western Thunderer

    JimG, Just needs chairs suitable for the sliding wing rails. D
  14. Simon

    Simon Flying Squad

    And I suppose that if you can also set your swinging wing rails in mid position it'll look like a proper point and be set up perfectly for your "proper" stock....
    adrian and Steve Cook like this.
  15. JimG

    JimG Western Thunderer


    There are two basic ways I could construct the crossing. The simplest way would be to treat the wing rails like point blades and pivot them somewhere along the closure rails (or maybe just rely on the spring in the rails with no pivots), put a short tiebar close to the knuckles on the wing rails and use slide chairs under the moving parts of the wing rails. The other way would be to build up the two wing rails in an assembly with something like brass or nickel silver strip (silver)soldered between the rails, and the whole assembly would be pivoted at the "X" point in my diagram. My thoughts are that the first method might be fine for genteel electric operation but might not be strong enough to stand up to the rigours of heavyweight live steam operation.

  16. JimG

    JimG Western Thunderer


    You would also need to move the wing rails away from the crossing to get things to line up. :):):):)

  17. Simon

    Simon Flying Squad

    Ah yes, you are quite right of course.

    I suspect that even for a man of your ingenuity and skill that would prove too much of a challenge:p
  18. David Halfpenny

    David Halfpenny Western Thunderer

    I've had a chat to Malcolm Fisher at Peartree Engineering = Model Railway Parts, and now have a better idea of what he can and can't do.

    - He uses capstan lathes and form tools, not CNC like Roxey.
    - Unlike CNC, there's no particular advantage in trying to piggy-back on a previous customer's orders: the capstan has to be set up mechanically for each batch, regardless of whether a similar batch has been cut before.
    - While he'll make a batch as small as you like, he reckons people find a batch of 100 wheelsets (200 wheels) upwards 'economical'.
    - If someone orders a batch of Specials, he makes a form tool to their drawing, levies a nominal charge for it (cheaper than those we've discussed recently) and runs off the batch. He then reserves that tool for that customer. Although an HSS tool has a fairly limited life (even though the lathe drops to a low-speed/high feed for the forming cuts), any order big enough to wear one out brings in enough dosh to fund the making of a replacement without troubling the customer for a second tooling charge.
    - His raw material is leaded free-cutting mild steel - better finish but a bit less easy to colour than bog-standard BDMS. He contracts-out hot chemical blackening. Wheels are kept separate to avoid marring in the vat or in drying.
    - He's often asked for spoked wheels - often by people unhappy with the stability of injection-moulded wheel centres - but he doesn't offer that service. (Although his website shows some spoked loco wheel castings, they are unlikely to help us.) So his range is pretty well disc wheels, which can be Plain, Drilled, or filled with etched brass representing either brake discs or Mansell 'silent teak', on both sides of each wheel.
    - For Insulation, he uses a turned acetal top-hat bush, pressed into the wheel before reaming to suit the axle. Each pair of wheels are pressed on simultaneously, and each wheelset is given a rolling visual wobble check.
    Malcolm can readily produce plain tyres with internal grooves - nice thing about a Capstan :)
    But if the big manufacturers struggle with concentricity , wobble and stability, so might we.
    And Simon had valid points with:
    So, in a nutshell, Peartree Engineering is one of our options for insulated steel disc wheels.
    . . . Whoever CNC'd the Roxey Mouldings wheels is another such option.
    . . . . . . I believe production-engineer Steph had a further option in mind - perhaps with spokes?

    Last edited: 17 March 2017
  19. Mike W

    Mike W Western Thunderer

    In the early days of S7 somebody - Dick Ganderton I think - made split spoke wagon wheels using dental resin centres and steel tyres. I don't know how they ere made but it was a home workshop method which worked. Might be worth asking some of the S7 pioneers like Ken Cottle?

  20. JimG

    JimG Western Thunderer

    If I remember correctly, the S7 Society supplied a mould which took the steel tyre and dental resin was used to fill up the spoke section of the mould. I remember getting a packet of the resin powder and the liquid to activate it at a model railway exhibition in Shepton Mallet (I think ) in the early 1980s which I had hoped to use in experiments to make S scale wheels.

    I think this might be the powder

    Simplex Rapid Denture Reline & Repair Acrylic Powder

    ...and this is the liquid

    Simplex Rapid Denture Reline & Repair Acrylic Liquid

    The colours available seem to be pink or ivory whereas I remember the S7 resin being a dark-ish brown colour.

    The method was to create an open topped mould using one of the casting rubbers. Then to make your cast, you filled the mould with liquid and poured the powder into the liquid until it was fully absorbed into the liquid. The top of the mould was then wiped flush and covered with a piece of cling film and a flat weight was placed on top and left until set. A certain amount of undercut could be accepted if the mould rubber was flexible.

    There was a good description of the process in the MRJ some years ago when Ian Pusey reviewed some 7mm scale chairs which were made by this method.

    I also remember the same Ian Pusey using the method to produce the detail parts for a rake of S scale wagons back round about the time that the S7 Society were using the method for wheels.