Ready to run 1/32 Mk 1 Coaches
- Thread starter Simon
- Start date
Steve Cook
Flying Squad
My bold. That old chestnut.
Really? That implies Bob, that you think all those humans in the whole process of getting these coaches to market was in the position to get every step right, first time without any impact on timescales. I maintain that any mistake by anybody would require a repeat step - that is part of the development process after all, and these will have gone through some sort of development process. As soon as you repeat, you add time and therefore cost. The more times you do it to edge closer to perfection, the more it costs. The only way you can attempt to get perfect first time is by slowing the whole process down and applying due diligence to every single step - that costs time, and therefore money, too.
Ultimately I think you and I will have to agree to disagree. I think that viewpoint highlighted above is too simplistic and it is one oft repeated - if was easy to get it right first time then these kind of conversations / internet storm-in-teacup posts would simply be history - that they are not implies it is difficult to get it right and we have to make judgement calls at a personal level about whether the end product is acceptable. That judgement will include the environment in which the product is used.
One could also factor in all of the other important constraints like language barriers, available manufacturing time slots, tool production, profit margins, investment, IP etc etc....
There are a lot of people who will be happier accepting a lesser product because it costs less. There are also a fair number of people who run rakes of Pullman's at £1000/coach, you can't blame people for making decisions based on price and usage.
Steve
Rob -
As I said in my earlier post "I absolutely do not want to offend anyone as we all enjoy our hobby in different ways".
If you are looking at this thread from the point of view of a garden railway runner then you won't find it depressing. If you are looking at it from the point of view of a manufacturer of kits who would need the majority of G1 modellers to be interested in such a range of kits [not just the small amount of 32nd fine-scalers whose numbers alone would not make such a business venture viable] then it could be viewed as quite depressing - to also answer Steve's point.
I didn't post this to attract flak - as I stated above I absolutely did not seek to offend anyone. But I am [even as a low-life manufacturer] entitled to my point of view. Actually Bob-65B's last post [No.29] sums it up for me better than I have myself.
To be honest it isn't so much this thread I find depressing as the link to the web site for the coaches that was posted. I followed this and thought I had gone back in time! Bulleid Pacifics with crooked roofs and - well, lets just leave it there!
Sorry for feeling the way I do. As I say, its really only my point of view - just as others have theirs.
Regards,
DJP
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
This is a really fascinating topic.
I'm coming to it from a viewpoint of having nothing in 1/32 except a dream. Just suppose I manage to get my 1/32 garden layout up and running. I've built my Fred Phipps warship.....then what. I want to run a train, and I have 2 options. I can build some 1/32 coaches - Fred Phipps or MMP (don't give up David) in, say, 3 years to make a train. Or I can pay £850 for 4 OK ish Mk 1's and have fantastic fun while I build my scale train. And then happily sell them on once I have built my own stock. They fulfil a low cost need that to me allows me to buy the most precious commodities of all - time and enjoyment.
Funily enough, I'm not in the market for MMP coaches in 7mm scale - I have a whole layout to populate and I can't do it in a reasonable timescale. In 1/32 however, I need little stock, so I can look at MMP products as a viable solution.
Richard
I'm coming to it from a viewpoint of having nothing in 1/32 except a dream. Just suppose I manage to get my 1/32 garden layout up and running. I've built my Fred Phipps warship.....then what. I want to run a train, and I have 2 options. I can build some 1/32 coaches - Fred Phipps or MMP (don't give up David) in, say, 3 years to make a train. Or I can pay £850 for 4 OK ish Mk 1's and have fantastic fun while I build my scale train. And then happily sell them on once I have built my own stock. They fulfil a low cost need that to me allows me to buy the most precious commodities of all - time and enjoyment.
Funily enough, I'm not in the market for MMP coaches in 7mm scale - I have a whole layout to populate and I can't do it in a reasonable timescale. In 1/32 however, I need little stock, so I can look at MMP products as a viable solution.
Richard
adrian
Flying Squad
Whilst I can appreciate your point of view and understand that it has to be based on economics I'm sure many of the other scales, 7mm included, were at the same embryonic stage years ago - so looking on the other side there maybe a huge untapped market there.
However that wasn't my reason for posting - it was more to balance the comment about the crooked roof because to be fair underneath that photograph it says.
So don't despair - maybe it isn't as bad as you think.
Phill Dyson
Western Thunderer
Sounds like my "world" when it comes to modelling! A plus one from me on that!
JF
Could you add me to that list too please!
Bob Reid
Western Thunderer
Steve, no offence but we are not talking about making sure every app works on the next iPhone release before it goes to market. What I'm talking about - getting the basic overall outline and shape correct for the body - can in it's most basic be solved by the simple expedient of buying for example the HMRS book by Parkin on Mark 1 Coaching Stock. All of the key dimensions to the basic structure are there. At that level it is easy to get it right first time. Producing one of the MMP kits is quite a different matter, given the high level of detail, but one thing that most certainly isn't wrong, is the basic outline. Anyway enough from me, I'm sure I'll be driving everyone to Gauge 1 despair.
taliesin
Western Thunderer
Just got back from my get together so i will add a bit, I took with me my Aster 9F Evening Star and seven Tower Brass MK1's. Rightly or wrongly 'Evening Star' has attracted the attention of the so called collectors and if you happen to come across an example un-steamed with all it's bits and bobs expect to pay circa £4500. Finished Tower MK1's are as previously stated circa £675 each, i have seven of them so do the maths kids.
The track i went to is quite large and set in a mature garden and quite a stretch of it is near ground level with grass banks up to the permanent way and various bridges along the way, to my mind very S&D and yes i do have a 'Pines Express' Headboard.
When i got there i decided to put my rake of coaches in a large loop across the other side of the track from the steaming bays. When my running slot arrived i steamed up then ran light engine very slowly to my waiting train.
The previous runner had been a chinese made A4, unknown to anyone it had lost it's dummy water scoop which laid in the four foot and yep, my 9F found it and promptly fell onto it's side. The good news is that i was able to put it upright without any meths fires and Aster paintwork is rather tough so no scratches either, remember i was running light engine and very slowly.
On another day i could have assembled my rake of coaches in a siding by the steaming bay, had i have done that i would have met the water scoop at a scale 60 mph with the coaches on the back following. I forgot to mention this part of the track is about a metre off the ground. Had this have happened i would suggest that this would be 'profoundly depressing' out here in the world of Garden Railways, cheers Rob
The track i went to is quite large and set in a mature garden and quite a stretch of it is near ground level with grass banks up to the permanent way and various bridges along the way, to my mind very S&D and yes i do have a 'Pines Express' Headboard.
When i got there i decided to put my rake of coaches in a large loop across the other side of the track from the steaming bays. When my running slot arrived i steamed up then ran light engine very slowly to my waiting train.
The previous runner had been a chinese made A4, unknown to anyone it had lost it's dummy water scoop which laid in the four foot and yep, my 9F found it and promptly fell onto it's side. The good news is that i was able to put it upright without any meths fires and Aster paintwork is rather tough so no scratches either, remember i was running light engine and very slowly.
On another day i could have assembled my rake of coaches in a siding by the steaming bay, had i have done that i would have met the water scoop at a scale 60 mph with the coaches on the back following. I forgot to mention this part of the track is about a metre off the ground. Had this have happened i would suggest that this would be 'profoundly depressing' out here in the world of Garden Railways, cheers Rob
taliesin
Western Thunderer
As an add on, some of you will be aware that i am building one of Fred's Class 22's, this kit had languished part built on another's shelf for over ten years before i took it on. As the build has progressed i have spent good money with Mark Wood (wheels), ABC Gears (er, motors and gears) and Peter Spoerer (various electrickery). I have since purchased four Slaters Milk Tanker Kits to build up as a train for it 
.
There is a market for decent 1/32 scale kits and i would welcome a few more onto the market but please do bear in mind my previous post and why some would choose to use cheaper 'compromise' stock in the garden, cheers Rob
.There is a market for decent 1/32 scale kits and i would welcome a few more onto the market but please do bear in mind my previous post and why some would choose to use cheaper 'compromise' stock in the garden, cheers Rob
Whilst I can appreciate your point of view and understand that it has to be based on economics I'm sure many of the other scales, 7mm included, were at the same embryonic stage years ago - so looking on the other side there maybe a huge untapped market there.
However that wasn't my reason for posting - it was more to balance the comment about the crooked roof because to be fair underneath that photograph it says.
So don't despair - maybe it isn't as bad as you think.
Yes but I could have listed many more innacuracies - I just restrained myself. I didn't even mention the Duchess or the Mk.1s themselves!
taliesin
Western Thunderer
David, no one is denying your right to an opinion, but 'profoundly depressing' seemed an odd turn of phrase. Not being a 7mm modeller i am not familiar with your range of kits and what you produce but i would suggest a 1/32nd scale BR Brake Van would do rather nicely, there are a lot of 1/32nd scale engines, coaches and wagons out there but very few Brake Vans, many do 1/32nd but not necessarily 'finescale' which in the context of Gauge 1 refers to the wheel and track standards.
Turning to the G1MCo coaches, i know little about plastic moulds and any knowledge i do have is therefore secondhand, when i spoke to the Proprietor of G1MCo he told me that there would be compromises including the windows, basically to produce moulds that resulted in a model similar to the Tower would push the final price up to a similar level and the whole project would then not be viable do to the lack of sales at that price.
Personally i have gone down the Tower route but i can understand why many would not. There is this rather strange idea that has built up over the years that the average G1MRA member is a retired Judge, General, Banker etc who owns vast parts of the Home Counties to build a layout in. Sorry folks but this is wrong, some might well exist but the average member is just an ordinary guy on an ordinary wage/pension who has to consider each purchase.
I notice that Hornby are bringing out simpler items to keep the price down, how many Hornby coaches can be purchased for the price of one Gauge 1 coach? worth bearing in mind.
A supplier of Gauge 1 engines once said "if you want to make a small fortune out of Gauge 1 then start with a large one
" cheers Rob
Turning to the G1MCo coaches, i know little about plastic moulds and any knowledge i do have is therefore secondhand, when i spoke to the Proprietor of G1MCo he told me that there would be compromises including the windows, basically to produce moulds that resulted in a model similar to the Tower would push the final price up to a similar level and the whole project would then not be viable do to the lack of sales at that price.
Personally i have gone down the Tower route but i can understand why many would not. There is this rather strange idea that has built up over the years that the average G1MRA member is a retired Judge, General, Banker etc who owns vast parts of the Home Counties to build a layout in. Sorry folks but this is wrong, some might well exist but the average member is just an ordinary guy on an ordinary wage/pension who has to consider each purchase.
I notice that Hornby are bringing out simpler items to keep the price down, how many Hornby coaches can be purchased for the price of one Gauge 1 coach? worth bearing in mind.
A supplier of Gauge 1 engines once said "if you want to make a small fortune out of Gauge 1 then start with a large one
" cheers Rob
taliesin
Western Thunderer
Likewise the Dapol 7mm wagons but it does not seem to have put many off, cheers Rob
A supplier of Gauge 1 engines once said "if you want to make a small fortune out of Gauge 1 then start with a large one
Thanks Rob - I think we'd sooner hang on to the reasonably comfortable one that our military kits have given us!
My use of 'profoundly depressing' was well considered. I hope all that I post is. It could also apply to some 7mm threads! I could give several reasons but to give one - I think any manufacturer who has agnonised over a set of kits over a period of 7 years as, we have with the Mk.1s [and I accept that no product is ever perfect] would feel depressed to see what is on offer here. Hell, I didn't think our Mk.1s were good enough for Gauge 1 despite what Cynric said to me - I was thinking we'd have to add even more detail to please you guys!
As I say we would need support from the entire Gauge 1 market for it to be viable as I understand there are only a few hundred modellers of all aspects of the scale in the country. So you can see what I mean I hope. This could go on and on so can we end it there please?
Regards,
DJP
taliesin
Western Thunderer
I understand you perfectly David, it is a small market and possibly difficult to expect any worthwhile return if you decided to enter it. I also realise that this cheaper compromised r-t-r stuff could queer the pitch for some already offering kits in this scale which is not a good thing for them or their existing customer base. Simon D has mentioned the 16 ton mineral wagon with all it's flaws however the average guy bought them by the truck load, take your pick from cost effective, easily pleased, lazy, convenient, robust for the garden etc etc, cheers Rob
P.S if you read my earlier post about my run today you can guess i am not impressed with Chinese soldering standards
P.S if you read my earlier post about my run today you can guess i am not impressed with Chinese soldering standards
Osgood
Western Thunderer
adrian
Flying Squad
I think you'll find he was referring to the "well considered" bit and not the profoundly depressing bit.
Osgood
Western Thunderer
Jon Fitness
Western Thunderer
Simon
Flying Squad
Whilst it might be too easy to jump to conclusions from what are photographs of pre-production models, I'd certainly agree that the "plinth" along the bodies looks odd/incorrect. My reading of this is that it's likely to be an assembly issue in that the "plinth" is designed to push right up flush with the bodyside, which is designed to be supported on it. Maybe not an ideal scenario visually but I'd guess there's some credible engineering design reason for the approach. Either way, I'm pretty certain that scalpels, filler and a bit of ingenuity on behalf of purchasers will sort this out.
I'm not sure I can see much else that is glaringly wrong, we know the glazing won't be flush already, the image editing is a bit crude and the pictures have consequently "lost" the important bodyside/cantrail/roofline interface which make the ends look odd, but I'm wagering they'll be "alright on the night" based upon the look of the side and end we can see.
For what it's worth, I have spoken to Trevor and he told me that he had access to original drawings through Keith Parkin's good offices.
And however it all pans out, Richard has exactly summed up my approach to my purchase of four of these coaches with this:
Simon
I'm not sure I can see much else that is glaringly wrong, we know the glazing won't be flush already, the image editing is a bit crude and the pictures have consequently "lost" the important bodyside/cantrail/roofline interface which make the ends look odd, but I'm wagering they'll be "alright on the night" based upon the look of the side and end we can see.
For what it's worth, I have spoken to Trevor and he told me that he had access to original drawings through Keith Parkin's good offices.
And however it all pans out, Richard has exactly summed up my approach to my purchase of four of these coaches with this:
Simon