1/32 Scratch Building Locos And Stock In 1/32

[mickoo]

Ok here goes,

Basically building in Plasticard in 1/32 scale, the first subject matter is a Class 40 and the current progress is MkII, MkI was an aborted wooden former approach with Plasticard formed over the outside, the details of which can be found at the 'other' site, problems with forming Plasticard that large and that thick saw the demise of that approach.

Current process is a box type affair, materials range from 0.080" (2mm) to 0.022" (0.55mm), there are issues with the current build and reading other Plasticard builds I can see where and why the errors have appeared, the decision now is to decide whether to carry on with MkII and clean it up in the vain hope it'll produce something respectable, or stop now and move to MkIII and use the new techniques/adhesives. I'd built in Plasticard in 4mm many years ago but the previously aquired techniques do not seem to scale up very well!.

Two images to start off, one showing a pre assembly to check everything lines up, the second with some roof skins added, two on the radiator section (primary and final), these skins are 0.55mm and thus dualed to give some rigidity, the boiler secion has only the primary skin, the engine room none and showing some of the internal formers....which later gave issues when skinned....more on that later.



Kindest

 

[Steph Dale]

Mick,

That's very neat work - I'm intrigued as to where did you get your drawings from and how you translate them to the plastic sheet?

A couple of neurons have fired about a way to build 10201. I think I could combine your approach with my tricks for coach building...

Steph

 

[mickoo]

Thank you, neat, ohh no, not nearly neat enough I'm afraid, too many wrinkles and slight mis-shaping for me to be happy with. The drawings are from the 4mm scale book, scaled up and printed out in 1/32, thought there are issues with the Carter drawings regarding cant rail grill sizes and positions as well as the engine room door and window placements, correct the grills and then the windows are in the wrong place.

Translation to plastic, pencil and ruler, simple as that, like you I pondered the form of construction, copious notes and measuring, I ran the profile up in 1:1 scale in 3DSM and then printed to scale, glued to a stack of formers and then cut too shape. 3DSM will form the core medium for detailed parts which will be 3D printed and then cast in resin.

I did purches a Proxxon desk saw and sander at Ally Pally, cost an arm and a leg but they do allow very accurate cutting of thick sheets and making sure its all square, the approach is like your approach, a deviation from the Jekins technique, my biggest mistake is no internal roof to form a horizontal longitudinal reference. My plan was to make the shell much like an RTR, ie as clean inside as possible and to allow access to the roof space to apply adhesive, that has made the shell a little weak structurally and allowed some areas to bow in or out, only a few 10ths mm but enough to spot. Having a clean shell inside and outside would of allowed resin casting. In short trying to do too much in one stage and making things overly complicated .

MkIII will have to avoid all that trickery, if mould making is to be employed then it'll have to be via another technique, concentrate on a good accurate exterior and then worry about how to build a former for the interior when casting.

10201, interesting, much more complex body to achieve, the tumblehome sides linked to that slightly bulbous front face may well present issues in keeping everything nice and neat.

Kindest

 

[mickoo]

Just a quick update, left the shell overnight to set after the engine room roof was added, pictures below, fret not about the untidy lower edge to the primary roof, this will all be covered when the final skin goes on, that will be the one where everything has to be neat and tidy, the sharp eyed will spot the niggles in the primary skin, I'm hoping the secondary roof skin will ease/eliminate most of these. These two images from the B side.

The biggest conundrum now is which adhesive to use to apply the second skin, the radiator section was stuck with Plasticweld, two issues with that, it dries off really quick allowing virtually no time to form or hold the second skin in place, second, when applied to prevent drying off it creates puddles which partially soften the skins and due to the high bending moments soften so much so as to distort the final form.



Kindest

 

[Simon]

That looks extremely good to me, and welcome also to WT - great to see another person trying the 1/32 water out.....

As far as shape/finish issues go, I can't see that you've got any problems that filler, sandpaper and #1 eyeball couldn't sort out. One tip (not that you need it) from a bodger, the "sandpaper" that comes off sanding belts is the stuff to use, you can do serious damage with the coarse stuff and get quite fine results with the finer grades. I don't suppose its remotely cheap, I got mine from a friend who worked in a furniture factory, it was the stuff they were throwing out, I think. If you need to fill big areas the two part epoxy wood filler is good stuff too and quite cheap in the quantities we need it in.

I look forward to seeing this develop - must get back to my 122, I've just noticed that it's over 2 months since I did anything to it

Simon

 

[mickoo]

- must get back to my 122, I've just noticed that it's over 2 months since I did anything to it

Simon

Simon, yes you must LOL, it was your thread, amoung others here, that finally prompted me to pull the proverbial digit out and get a crack on, too many years mental modeling and not enough physical modeling .

I buy my sandpaper from Homebase or B&Q, grade 80 really does the damage on Plasticard 180 is pretty good for final smoothing, but for ultra smooth I tend to use wet and dry and go for 600 or 800 grade.

The overall shape is ok, the problem are the skin low spots between the formers, they do not show up too well in the photos, adding filler is fine but the skin flexes too much so its a problem sanding the filler and almost impossible to get smooth, I may even have to go for a third external skin, if I continue with 0.55 as I've been using that puts the model 0.6mm too wide over the body shell, thats nearly 3/4" too wide, next question is, is that sort of error acceptable, and that is only something I can decide . A thiner skin of 0.25 set the width perfectly, its currently going to be 0.4mm too narrow, so I'm sort of expecting to add a third thin skin anyway if i want to be ultra accurate, the issue is will an extra 0.25 on the roof give the additional firmness I require, ie a total of 1.35mm or 1.65mm, there always a puzzle to solve in this lark ehh!.

Kindest

 

[Simon]

I see what you mean, flexing is majorly unhelpful to the old filling thing.

Two thoughts - didn't the real thing exhibit similar shape "changes" between its formers? And secondly, instead of adding extra skins (which I would have thought might play merry hell with your finished dimensions) could you not cement/solvent a strengthening "skin" on the inside by attaching lots of pieces of thicker sheet (or even quick drying filler!) behind your existing skin to "rigidify" it? I know this would be fiddly and tedious but at least you wouldn't have to worry too much about the (internal) finish.

Whatever you do it's a great thread and nice to see pictures of "making" stuff too, especially in 1/32

Keep up the good work!

Simon

(Half term today so I'm not going to get much done

 

[mickoo]

You and me both, kids!, still, managed to drop by the local hobby shop and stocked up on Zap adhesives, Yellow, Pink, Green and a kicker, also a new bottle of Plasticweld (note to self, don't spill this new bottle all over your cutting mat again!).

Right, hungry horse effect, least thats what they seem to call it in the nautical modeling fraternity (also part building a 1:96 USS missile cruiser, thats an outside summer job as its over 6' long) http://www.flickr.com/photos/62392877@N05/ .
Your right adding internal skins is the way to go, that can be accomplished on the radiator section only, the boiler and engine room sections have that internal roof that caps the top of the grills, you just cannot get through that internally to brace the roof. This has been one of the issues, no internal longitudinal roof roof means that the sides have a slight bow in places and the use of transverse formers has created the hungry horse effect. Adding the longitudinal roof will solve the side problem and with correct longitudinal formers accompanied by transverse ones will eliminate the hungry horse effect, but it will not allow internal access. The areas worst affected are the cant rail curves, fortunately these can still all be accessed internally. By good fortune and skin/shell calculation, the cant rail radius in 1/32 is 16mm, idea then to use B&Q 1/4 round wood beading from the inside to support these areas, on the MkIII these will be planned in from the beginning and will help solve that area and reduce the effect in the upper curved section. Quick drying filler is an option, and a good one, but you have to find one that will stick to Plasticard, the only reliable one I've found is Isopon P38, the only problem there is its a two part adhesive and like most two part adhesives generates an awful amount of heat as it cures. When I was making the nose for the 4mm Nohab (years before Heljan produced theres) the top part got very hot, almost too hot to touch comfortably, easily 70 degC, a quick rush to the freezer stopped the Plastic from deforming, that block was only 1"x.5"x.5" at most, I'd hate to think of the temperate a piece 3"x2"x.25" would produce.

EE were quite clever in their construction of BR locos, most have almost the exact same roof profile, class 40,23,37,50,55 and DP2 all have the same double radii roof section, most are only a few inches different in width, its the lower body side where they made the most changes. Whats the use of that info?, well once this technique is perfected then the measurements can be locked in stone and all the other classes produced with little worry over the roof aspect, besides, the roof is the part people see the most.

Regarding 1:1 scale deformities, your absolutely right, up close I don't think theres more than 10" sq thats evenly formed, nor are the grill slats even remotely straight and parallel, but this is one of the areas that replicating in model form seems to be a no no, bent grills on a model!, just not right old chap, prototypical or not, most modelers are very happy to make their grills and roofs/sides uber smooth/straight, strange how we simply turn on/off the realism factor to suit certain aspects? .

Kindest

 

[Neil]

With Simon on the wiggly sides, there was a chap over on RMweb who attacked the side of a 27 (?) to achive that rippled look that the real thing has. If you've got them, flaunt them.

 

[mickoo]

Ok problem solved on the cant rail radius, trimmed up some 16mm 1/4 round and glued in place, this should have been planned in at the first stage, adding things like this ad-hoc later just looks plain ugly, but we wont be seeing the inside so it wont matter, but I'm kind of old school and think what you don't see should be as good as what you do.

Neil, regarding wiggles, I concur, if done well they look the business, if not then it tends to look like shoddy workmanship, sadly the current wriggles definitely fall into the latter .



Kindest

 

[Simon]

I know what you mean about the wiggles, I wouldn't be brave enough to try and emulate them either!

One of the best ever bits of weathering/modelling I have ever seen was where either Steve Harrod or Rob Mabbett (or both) had used light paint on a Lima (I think) 4mm scale Western to suggest where the internal frame had "shown through" as the loco went through the carriage washing plant - magic! One of these may have been featured in the recent "Highbridge road" article in the Railway Modeller.

Good 1/2 term day out here too. A bit of retail therapy, first some essentials at Mole Valley Farmers and then at the "Gas Cupboard" Dave's excellent and well stocked new shop in Trowbridge. A few more vehicles (including a very "Sweeney" Police Consul) some station signage and those lovely Roger Smith etched speed restriction signs - all for the 4mm scale cardboard escapism I'm afraid

Simon

 

[Phill Dyson]

With Simon on the wiggly sides, there was a chap over on RMweb who attacked the side of a 27 (?) to achive that rippled look that the real thing has. If you've got them, flaunt them.

Any chance of a link to the rippled look on the Class 27 Neil ?

 

[Steph Dale]

Any chance of a link to the rippled look on the Class 27 Neil ?

Erm, aren't we all thinking about Pugsley's 37?

Mick,

In terms of the framing/skins - you could put a middle layer over the one you already have with is the shape/pattern of the prototype framing and then put a suitably thin overall layer on the outside as a skin. Using Mek would give you a slightly/somewhat uneven skin.

And the Zap adhesives are pretty useful for the sort of things we're talking about here - SheetZAP (the blue one) is particularly useful for laminating without distortion. SlowZAP (yellow) makes a reasonable filler too; combine with a little talc/french chalk if you need to bulk it out.

Steph
p.s. - has that MZ in your avatar really got a DBAG logo..???

 

[mickoo]

Steph, well Zap seems to be working very well, the setting times in no way reflect the time you have to move pieces around, yellow is a 30 second set time but the minute the pieces touch they're pretty well stuck!. Things have progressed well today, the roof finally is beginning to look respectable, nice and smooth, some little niggles but easily sorted with fine filler and some will be covered by roof hatches and sundries. Zap takes a whole new approach to modeling, its going to take me the rest of the evening to get my finger prints back! and the fumes off the kicker!!, now I know why its called 'kicker'. I couldn't get blue Zap at my local hobby store so have been laminating mainly with Yellow, but that throws up issues as its quite thick and if it sets before you get the skin smooth you end up with hard spots underneath, green seems better and fills the little gaps between the two skins much better, as for red, wow I've never seen a fluid that viscous before, clever stuff.

I don't think the Class 40 roof suffers from rib effects per-se, more just dings and dents from hob nailed boots clambering all over them, more so the actual roof panels as opposed to the roof structure.

Hopefully post so pictures tonight, just adding the primary side skins now and getting them aligned with the roof skins, the plan is to get it all ready to add the final side skins with correct windows and openings, though the 'boss' seems to have other ideas for tomorrow, being the 14th Feb and all that <sigh>.

Mz, sadly yes, DSB doesn't have any more locos, actually I lie, they do still have some Me class on DSB books as are most passenger units, had a ride on a MF (long story involving missing flight home and traveling all across Denmark to Copenhagen to get another) and although they're a unit they do sound great inside as they ramp up the gears, real gutsy exhaust that growls when under load. Back to the Mz and Eg the last two loco classes they have for freight, all are now owned by DBAG, some Ea are now painted in the German red with white whiskers, no Mz painted yet. The real stars are the cross border freights, usually a TRAXX 185 that will run all the way from Germany to Norway and only change drivers, some Norwegian locos to in the form of TRAXX 'Hector Rail' 185's, theres not too much freight but when it does arrive its massive, all fully fitted and a complete random collection of stock, mostly covered high cubes, but they'll mix in tankers, log wagons, car wagons, what ever in one train.

The picture of the Mz is one of the most emotive photos (for me) I've ever taken, there's not so much noise as they are now all fitted with Euro emission exhausts but the sheer presence of a loco roaring around that curve with a 1000t trailer train is something else. I took this on the last day, only saw two freights all day and then five passed me in 20 mins, three only two blocks apart, ie in the space of 6 minutes, a perfect end to the trip . See, told you I digress LOL. You can see a large image here http://www.flickr.com/photos/32755955@N05/6200149933/sizes/o/in/set-72157624304495752/ sometime this year this image and a hand full of others I like are gong to be printed out large scale for my study wall. I also managed to get 130+ Mz IV detail walk around shots too, plus photo shoots of other classes, not posted on my Flickr site.

Kindest

 

[Steph Dale]

The picture of the Mz is one of the most emotive photos (for me) I've ever taken, there's not so much noise as they are now all fitted with Euro emission exhausts but the sheer presence of a loco roaring around that curve with a 1000t trailer train is something else. I took this on the last day, only saw two freights all day and then five passed me in 20 mins, three only two blocks apart, ie in the space of 6 minutes, a perfect end to the trip . See, told you I digress LOL. You can see a large image here http://www.flickr.com/photos/32755955@N05/6200149933/sizes/o/in/set-72157624304495752/ sometime this year this image and a hand full of others I like are gong to be printed out large scale for my study wall. I also managed to get 130+ Mz IV detail walk around shots too, plus photo shoots of other classes, not posted on my Flickr site.

Kindest

Mick,

Yeah, I'm with you on all that - the last Mz are effectively SD45-2s I think? So yes, impressive haulage abilities in a European context...

I took a picture much like yours with two 185 on a coal train through the Mosel a couple of years ago; coming straight towards me at an great speed for a freight train - the most amazing picture I've ever taken.

Anyway, back on topic , I take your point with the roof ribs; have you got pictures of the locos under construction that might help? I was thinking about this again this evening and dug out a couple of pictures of 10201 under construction, which showed an almost aircraft-like construction, with hoops and stringers. However I've also managed to baffle myself completely with the arrangement of the roof panels - a clear roof shot would help me enormously.

Good luck with the Carter drawings - I recognise their odd (mostly minor) weak points having re-drafted a set of Class 50 drawings some years ago. But they remain very useful and much better, in general, than anything else available.

Steph

 

[Neil]

Any chance of a link to the rippled look on the Class 27 Neil ?

Erm, aren't we all thinking about Pugsley's 37? ....

Yes here it is, and no I'm not.

 

[Phill Dyson]

Yes here it is, and no I'm not.

Thanks Neil

 

[28ten]

Big project and I know what you mean about plans, it seems virtually impossible to track down GA's for anything post '65.
The Fred Phipps Warship has subtle ribs visible on the cab front and the bodies have a pleasing ripple, that comes as close as anything I have seen.
Im liking the Cruiser as well great to see scratchbuilding

 

[mickoo]

It's a weird one, isn't it, that also crops up when modeling such things as lamp posts and telegraph poles.... they may end up at all sorts of angles in real life, but put them like that on a layout and it just looks like careless or shoddy modelling......

As I read through this, I was thinking that there must be easier ways to make a Class 40.... I have to keep reminding myself that it's a scale one up from 7mm, which has kits available..... D'oh!!

Ahh, telegraph poles, yes, must all be perfectly perpendicular, irrespective of real life.

There is a kit available, W&CW make one, but as yet I've not seen a decent shot of a finished model anywhere, though I hear it can be made into a respectable model, its not easy, having said that finished models in no way reflect the quality of kits, that all depends on the builders, some real silk purses can be made from real pig of a kit, like wise ham fisted modeling can destroy the best of kits. The other problem with W&CW is the scale, they are 1/30.5, I decided long and hard before opting for 1/32 and that only leaves scratch building, I didn't want to go through all that OO-HO scale gauge malarkey again. I did consider a JLRT one, just to scale off, but that seemed a little excessive so opted to scale from photos and use what ever drawings exist. A trip to NVR, hopefully this week, will see some detail photos taken and some basic measurements etc, they are very accommodating, allowed me, twice, to crawl all over their BoB (another project simmering away) chassis undergoing restoration and take photos, if anyone wants copies then let me know and I'll bundle them all up and host them on a FTP for collection.

I suspect I will be going back to W&CW for some of their brass castings for front end pipes and such, I can forgive the scale difference there, in reality the casting shrinkage may well put the parts closer to 1/32 scale than the envisaged 1/30.5.

Kindest

 

[mickoo]

Big project and I know what you mean about plans, it seems virtually impossible to track down GA's for anything post '65.
The Fred Phipps Warship has subtle ribs visible on the cab front and the bodies have a pleasing ripple, that comes as close as anything I have seen.
Im liking the Cruiser as well great to see scratch building

Thank you, the cruiser is modeling in a completely different vein, there are some issues with the hull shape, but the application of Fibre glass inside and copious amounts of sanding outside will solve that, retaining the distinctive chimes will be a chore though. To be fair I'm more of a merchant vessel man myself but figured a missile cruiser would be a good place to start! ?.

I'll have to look into this rippling, though on initial thinking, I'm tending more to a painted solution rather than a physical one.

Kindest