SER Stepped End Wagon

Discussion in 'G3' started by Jon Nazareth, 4 November 2018.

  1. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    This is the next wagon project, after this it should locos and coaches. Well, I do have a pair of ballast wagons that may creep in at some point.
    The SER had 50 built by Brown Marshall in 1863.
    The pictures show the under frame that I've built in styrene. It's not possible to buy this size of Evergreen Strip (N0. 403 in 24" lengths) in this country and I've had to order it from Canada. If anyone knows of a source on the Continent, it would save me paying the import duty :). Holes in the buffer beams are for draw hook, buffers and safety chains. The ones in the middle two braces are for the draw hook spring system.

    Jon

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  2. Mike W

    Mike W Western Thunderer

    That's a complex one to fathom out Jon. If the raised end is really narrower than the sides of the wagon, then shouldn't the line on the sideview indicating the top of the side plank, go right through to the end? And on the side view it looks like the horizontal frame across the end level with the top of the side is actually thicker that the corner posts and protrudes, yet on the end view there are no lines to indicate this, unless the horizontal "strapping" across the end is actually an inch or two thick? The corner posts are quite narrow on the sideview, yet the end planks are recessed (you can see the bolts on the end view), so by the time you allow for the recess (c.2"?) and the thickness of the end planks (c.1") there isn't much cornerplate left to cover the end of the planks forming the sides.

    Don't suppose there is a photo at all?
     
  3. Yorkshire Dave

    Yorkshire Dave Western Thunderer

    SER - what's next LCDR? :).
     
  4. victorianman

    victorianman Member

    Re the SER wagon, it looks as though the two drawings are the end of the stepped-end version, and the side of the more numerous 'D' ended type of which there is a drawing in the HMRS collection, and also in Southern Wagons Vol. 3, figure 10. Both types were built by the SER from about 1863 onward, and the stepped-end type was just a variant of the 'D' end type fro reasons unknown.

    On these 1863 wagons, the horizontal end bracing is actually a very shallow arc on the outer edge, flush with the corner braces but proud of the two central vertical braces; see plate 19 and 20 in Southern Wagons Vol.3, and your drawing does not indicate this; later versions from about 1885 (Southern Wagons Vol.3 plate 21) had a flatter end brace flush with the verticals.

    Jon, if you are making this in G3, I'd respectfully suggest that working from a GA would be better; I don't know if you intend to deepen the headstock as, at about 1' 2 1/2", it is deeper than the 12"solebars, and the floor planks butt up against it rather than sitting on top. The ends on both varieties of wagons have a strapping-come-capping strip that goes all the way round from headstock end to headstock end. Note also that the the 'D' end is not a simple curve as shown in Southern Wagons, but a more complex mixture of radii.

    I hope you take this in the spirit in which it is given, which is to stop a fine model being spoiled by inaccuracies derived from a seemingly mixed-up drawing.
     
  5. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    Mike/Geoff
    I posted the above drawing just to give people an idea of what I was going to build. Below is the same drawing but with my thoughts on how the end works with the side planks. Geoff, if there is a GA of the stepped wagon, do you know what the HMRS number is? I have looked on their site in the hope of finding a drawing of the end of the stepped wagon but without luck.

    Jon IMG_3377.JPG
     
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  6. victorianman

    victorianman Member

    Hello,Jon. Your thoughts are correct in that the side planks run the full length of the wagon, with the end verticals butting against their inside at each end.
    The HMRS drawing I have from years back is HMRS no 639, SER drawing number 307. On my copy, the stepped end is reproduced very faintly, and I seem to have pencilled bits in; however, it is enough to produce a model. The side view is that of the 'D' end type, but there is a plan view clearly showing the shape of the horizontal end brace.
    I produced my own kit of the 'D' end type in 7mm many years ago, and have built both 'D' and stepped end more recently in S gauge, though both lacking buffer rams and brake (or should I say 'break') levers.
    Hope this helps, and I look forward to seeing the model progressing on here.
    Best wishes.
     
  7. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    Geoff
    Well, I've ordered a copy of the drawing and you are right, the important bits are very poor but, the drawing is about 150 yrs old after all. With regards to making a decent representation, I'll do my best but there will probably be some inaccuracies knowing me.

    Jon
     
  8. Spitfire2865

    Spitfire2865 Western Thunderer

    Even with some inaccuracies, who will be able to notice to call you out on it? Unless someone is holding out on a pristine GA somewhere.
     
  9. Yorkshire Dave

    Yorkshire Dave Western Thunderer

  10. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    Dave
    Many years ago, I built Dan's version of the stepped end wagon and it is his drawing that I'm following. I sold the 7mm version some weeks ago but forgot to take lots of pictures before she went, hey ho.
    If the LCDR operated an unusual looking wagon, I may consider it. I've looked through Southern Wagons Vol.3 and nothing there. I attempted to see what the HMRS had on their files but their site is down.

    Jon
     
    Last edited: 7 November 2018
  11. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    Just musing. The drawing that I am using at the present shows a deepened head stock but the end view of the drawing in Vol. 3 of Southern Wagons doesn't. I wonder which is correct or are they both correct. Still waiting for my HMRS drawing.

    Jon
     
  12. victorianman

    victorianman Member

    Hello,Jon. the deepened headstock is certainly correct for the earliest period. Looking at plate 20 in Southern Wagons vol.3 shows this clearly, but also shows the headstock end has been cut back, so possibly a replacement as happened; in fact the other end of the wagon may have the original rounded-end headstock. Incidentally, your stepped -end wagon is shown as no.40408 in plate 18.
    All Best.
     
  13. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    Here are the buffers. I have used Mike Williams's four rib three bolt short but, I have converted them to four bolt. The heads I've made up myself with pads of ebony veneer glued on. The sizes I've taken from HMRS drawing No. 28027 dated 1861.

    Geoff
    Yes, I have spotted 4048 and it's a pity that it has a sheet thrown over it.

    Jon

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  14. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

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    Some progress with this project which, so far, has been slow due to me making stupid mistakes and then having to rectify them. Hopefully of that is behind now and true progress will be steady.
    The axle boxes are some of Mike Williams' with the bells and whistles removed creating this plain version. If you look at the drawing above, you will see that the SER boxes had a little rectangular decoration on the face isn't on these...can't have everything. Safety chains, coupling chains and horse hooks are next on the list.

    Jon
     
  15. Spitfire2865

    Spitfire2865 Western Thunderer

    Looking good.
    I may have to try building a wagon at some point from styrene.
     
  16. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    Trevor
    I find that scratch building with styrene is so easy especially when it comes to sticking it all together. I dispense the Mek-pak via a thing called a Pin Flow and as long as you don't get the needle blocked with softened styrene, it's a brilliant tool and a doddle to use.

    Jon
     
  17. Spitfire2865

    Spitfire2865 Western Thunderer

    Ahh, youre really making me consider it for something in the future. But I do love the rigidness I can get with wood. How do you find the chassis structure once its all together. Does it have a bit of give in it?
     
  18. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    Not thought of it really. I think that the chassis' are quite strong the way that I build them but if you think they need a bit more then you could always put in those diagonal bracings that you see on the real thing but I've never felt the need.

    Jon
     
  19. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    More mistakes so, had to strip down the chassis and fill the W iron mounting holes again. This time, I wiped on a smear of filler which has since hardened and been rubbed down. I've scrapped the W irons that I was using and have drawn up some new ones. Jamie Page is, very kindly, going to make up the new ones on his pantograph machine. I looked for one some years ago but, nothing on the market then and now, if one comes up for sale, it is too big and would require a lorry to move.
    In the meantime, I have been blacking up some of the metal work, it needs doing anyway, in the hope that I can assemble these items once the body has been painted. It doesn't look as if the W irons can be treated off the underframe but I'm not giving up just yet.

    Jon

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  20. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    A question on SER horse hooks. When their bolts pass through the W iron, are they secured with the same size nuts as used on the rest of the W iron? There aren't any decently close up pictures in the Southern Wagons book so, I'm wondering if anyone here knows. Thr drawing that I have shows them looking like a question mark on it's side and I'm wondering if this was put into practice. Any ideas?

    Jon

    P.S. The transfers have arrived from Fox's, £40.00 for four sets, not that I need four sets but hey ho. I'll upload a picture later.