Spitfire's G3 Workbench

Spitfire2865

Western Thunderer
Black is a pig to photograph, so flash it is.
20180501_214514-1.jpg 20180501_214540-1.jpg
Windows glazed, lamp irons fitted.
Sadly I had completely forgot about the end hatches, so they do not work.

I didnt like how high it was riding on the springs, and being a brake van, I wanted it to have a good weight.
20180501_214604.jpg
So Ive stuffed it with adhesive wheel weights. Now it weighs around 800 grams. That plus the working brakes, it should make sure any couplings stay taught.

I bought 9lbs of them (576 1/4oz segments) off amazon for $20 with free shipping!
I have plenty of weights now. Should last me at least a dozen wagons. Which at my rate will be damn near a decade!
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Regarding my previous post, If anyone has any input on the merits of gauge widening on sub 5' radius, Id be willing to hear.
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
Regarding my previous post, If anyone has any input on the merits of gauge widening on sub 5' radius, Id be willing to hear.

You can apply as much gauge widening as you want provided the track gauge doesn't allow a wheelset to drop through - i.e. the track gauge should not be wider than the distance between the outer face of one flange to the outer face of the other tyre on a wheelset. But you may run in to problems with the angularity of the flange to the rail if you push to maximum widening and tighter curves. The angularity will tend to make the wheel ride up on the outer rail and there will be a tendency to derail on any imperfect rail joint or kink in the rail. Toy train flanges tended to have deep flanges with an angled face so that the flanges presented their faces tangentally to the rail helped by a round topped rail profile.

The length of the wheelbase also affects the angularity of the flange and most people pushing into smaller radii stick with short wheelbase rolling stock and locomotives to minimise the problem. A longer 0-6-0 chassis might give derailing problems even if it works, technically, with gauge widening. I do know that a fellow S scale modeller - Jas Millham - has a long wheelbase 0-6-0 locomotive with a Cleminson arrangement on its axles to let it get round the tighter curves on his layout without derailment. (Just thinking about that, I shall have to go back and re-read his article in the S Scale Gazette to see how he dealt with the coupling rods. :) )

Jim.
 

Spitfire2865

Western Thunderer
Thanks.
I was considering Cliff Barkers 64.5mm track for the curves, but I am afraid with the extra 2mm of slop in each wagon, would I then have bufferlocking that I wouldnt have with 63.5mm. As I have yet to make up any track panel with the radius, I cant determine exactly how much buffer contact Ill have. I know it would work on 4' radius at I believe 63.5.
Obviously its rediculous to expect a long wheelbase 060 to get around such tight curves, that was more theory rather than actual expectation.
 

Peter

Western Thunderer
...... I do know that a fellow S scale modeller - Jas Millham - has a long wheelbase 0-6-0 locomotive with a Cleminson arrangement on its axles to let it get round the tighter curves on his layout without derailment. (Just thinking about that, I shall have to go back and re-read his article in the S Scale Gazette to see how he dealt with the coupling rods. :) )

Jim.

Hi Jim,

I am interested in more detail of the system used by Jas Millham as I have always associated the Cleminson system as being applicable to carriages and wagons only.

The only systems that I know of that provide radial and lateral displacement of coupled axles are Heywood, Klien-Lindner and Luttermöller. In each system, the locomotive has outside frames along with cylinders, coupling rods and valve gear.

Peter
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
I am interested in more detail of the system used by Jas Millham as I have always associated the Cleminson system as being applicable to carriages and wagons only.

Peter,

I'll find his article in our S Scale Gazette and try and dig out the relevant information.

Jim.
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
Thanks.
I was considering Cliff Barkers 64.5mm track for the curves, but I am afraid with the extra 2mm of slop in each wagon, would I then have bufferlocking that I wouldnt have with 63.5mm. As I have yet to make up any track panel with the radius, I cant determine exactly how much buffer contact Ill have. I know it would work on 4' radius at I believe 63.5.
Obviously its rediculous to expect a long wheelbase 060 to get around such tight curves, that was more theory rather than actual expectation.

Trevor,

On buffer locking you could attempt to fit a straight length in the centre of an "S" curve where buffer locking is most likely. The straight should be at least the length of your longest vehicle. It is a recommendation that is made for North American railroad modelling by the NMRA, but I've rarely seen it recommended in the UK. You can also use other tricks to get round the problem - like oversize buffers, or lengths of thin wire fixed horizontally to buffer faces which are slightly longer than the buffer diameter to effectively enlarge the diameter.

Jim.
 

Spitfire2865

Western Thunderer
Well Ive gone and done it now. Just purchased a CD of engineering drawings from the 1970s reconstuction of the Jupiter and 119 locomotives out in Utah, USA.
So Im thinking of building an 1870s American 4-4-0 built by Schenectady Loco Works to G3. Going to be a long road...
Would anyone be willing to take on the job of casting and turning wheels when the time comes? Rather difficult not having a machine shop and all.
 

Spitfire2865

Western Thunderer
Well as an update from my previous post, I also have purchased an old book that should have some good information on early American locomotives.
But in the meantime, Ive finally given a thought to the Midland 1377 class.
For this build, Id like to make it mostly from etches and lasercutting. I think the more defined shape of the 1377 should lend itself well to it. Definitely not because I have no access to 3D CAD at the moment.
Luckily GRS also still have a lot of their cast fittings available but not at an insignificant price.
But to give you something to look at besides a wall of text, heres a screencap from where Im ending tonights work.
5-4-18 autocad update.png
Ive got the chassis mostly finished.
Anyone know what the motion plate would look like? I might as well put Something in that void as the motor can hide in the sidetanks this time around.
 

Spitfire2865

Western Thunderer
Well a strange couple weeks.
Ive had a nasty ingrown toenail/blister combo that has really taken a lot out of me, but I bit the bullet and partially sorted out the toe so I can start working on other things without nagging pain, like my Cliff Barker order that arrived yesterday.
I blame Geoff for what follows.

Ive been playing with track.
I drew up in AutoCAD a 36° section of 4.5' rad track and printed it out to build off of.
Sleeper webs were trimmed on the inside by about 2 mil, forming the correct curve.
20180519_214043-1.jpg
Ive got 2 done and a third ready to assemble. Im hoping to eventually get some plywood cut to act as a 'base' and keep the curves solid.
Anyone know if LGB code250 joiners work on bullhead? Might be easier than the moulded fishplates.

Ive also been working on AutoCAD on that American 4-4-0.
I have the loco frames drawn up but Im struggling interpretting some of the drawings I have as there are none for loco assemblies. Anyone know how bar frames go together?

And finally, some recent travellings found me at one of my favourite ground level stations where I found a tieplate on the shoulder between rail and platform. Was tempted to grab it, but didnt want to lug it all the way home. Weighed quite a bit more than it looks.
20180514_104901-1.jpg
Probably for the best. Ive enough useless junk without bringing more!
 

geoff_nicholls

Western Thunderer
your trainset track looks very nice. LGB rail is, I think, code 330, so the fishplates will be way too big for Cliff Barker track. Wit a bit of hacking, the Cliff Barker fishplates can be eased out to make frequent dismantling of the track an easy job. Did you see that Cliff does 5 foot (1.5m) radius turnouts?
 

Spitfire2865

Western Thunderer
your trainset track looks very nice. LGB rail is, I think, code 330, so the fishplates will be way too big for Cliff Barker track. Wit a bit of hacking, the Cliff Barker fishplates can be eased out to make frequent dismantling of the track an easy job. Did you see that Cliff does 5 foot (1.5m) radius turnouts?
LGB was probably the wrong company. There is code 250 flatbottom rail by the other companies. If those fit the bullhead, it might be easier for a non-permanent thing.
And yes I did see, tempting but not for now. When I do go on to build a proper garden line, Ill probably go a little wider radius.

At what point did American builders make bar frames as an one-piece casting?
They didnt. They were bolted together. I cant figure out from my selection of drawings, which are somewhat poorly documented, how the frames as a whole go together, where crossmembers go, or what exactly bolts to what.
Sadly the actual loco I have the drawings for is over 2000 miles away so I cant exactly go and photograph it, nor does it appear anyone else has thought to do so.
 

Spitfire2865

Western Thunderer
A Sunday well spent.
Began by finally spraying the main lettering for the D21 brake.
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I do like having spray masks for lettering, though Ill have to make some more for the illiterate marks for the D1.
But onto the D1, Ive finally added brakes.
20180520_212901-1.jpg
20180520_212920-1.jpg
First time Ive actually built them like the prototype with a floating link between brake block and hanger. Its not easily seen in the photo but it makes fitting brakes a lot easier. Ill have to do it this way from now on.
 

Paul Peterson

New Member
Well a strange couple weeks.
Ive had a nasty ingrown toenail/blister combo that has really taken a lot out of me, but I bit the bullet and partially sorted out the toe so I can start working on other things without nagging pain, like my Cliff Barker order that arrived yesterday.
I blame Geoff for what follows.

Ive been playing with track.
I drew up in AutoCAD a 36° section of 4.5' rad track and printed it out to build off of.
Sleeper webs were trimmed on the inside by about 2 mil, forming the correct curve.
View attachment 87998
Ive got 2 done and a third ready to assemble. Im hoping to eventually get some plywood cut to act as a 'base' and keep the curves solid.
Anyone know if LGB code250 joiners work on bullhead? Might be easier than the moulded fishplates.

Ive also been working on AutoCAD on that American 4-4-0.
I have the loco frames drawn up but Im struggling interpretting some of the drawings I have as there are none for loco assemblies. Anyone know how bar frames go together?

And finally, some recent travellings found me at one of my favourite ground level stations where I found a tieplate on the shoulder between rail and platform. Was tempted to grab it, but didnt want to lug it all the way home. Weighed quite a bit more than it looks.
View attachment 87995
Probably for the best. Ive enough useless junk without bringing more!

Trevor,
I would be willing to try to answer your questions about bar frame construction. What do you need?
Paul Peterson
New Hampshire, USA
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
So Im thinking of building an 1870s American 4-4-0 built by Schenectady Loco Works to G3.

W&ARR's the GENERAL? alas a Rogers locomotive.

Or you could always build a Schenectady or Baldwin 2-6-0 as used by the Midland, Great Northern or Great Central railways.

Incidentally do 1:48 scale engineering drawings exist of early American 4-4-0s?
 

Spitfire2865

Western Thunderer
W&ARR's the GENERAL? alas a Rogers locomotive.

Or you could always build a Schenectady or Baldwin 2-6-0 as used by the Midland, Great Northern or Great Central railways.

Incidentally do 1:48 scale engineering drawings exist of early American 4-4-0s?
Ive actually got engineering drawings from the replica Jupiter and 119, but they dont have assembly drawings, which makes figuring out how it goes together VERY difficult. And there is little space to cheat and treat it like a normal model chassis.

Ive thought about the Midland Moguls, but its a long term idea, not for now.

I can barely find anything about early locos besides very grainy and useless photographs.
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
It sounds like you need 'American Locomotives - An Engineering History, 1830 to 1880' by John H. White Jr. Published by Johns Hopkins. Nearly 600 pages of drawings, photos and analysis.
 

Spitfire2865

Western Thunderer
It sounds like you need 'American Locomotives - An Engineering History, 1830 to 1880' by John H. White Jr. Published by Johns Hopkins. Nearly 600 pages of drawings, photos and analysis.
Is this book available anywhere online? If I can avoid it, Id rather not add another book to my shelf right now.

Ok, I had a look, and I notice there are two books, both by White.
American Locomotives- An Engineering History and
A History of the American Locomotive

Do you know if these are the same? They have wildly different prices.
 
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Overseer

Western Thunderer
Is this book available anywhere online? If I can avoid it, Id rather not add another book to my shelf right now.

Ok, I had a look, and I notice there are two books, both by White.
American Locomotives- An Engineering History and
A History of the American Locomotive

Do you know if these are the same? They have wildly different prices.
American Locomotives - An Engineering History is the second edition, published in 1997, of White's earlier (1968 I think) A History of American Locomotives. I only have the 1997 version but it says in the preface that 92 pages and 45 new illustrations have been added, mostly previously unpublished drawings. The earlier book will be good, the later edition is better. White was employed by the Smithsonian so had good access to sources. His other books The American Railroad Passenger Car and The American Railroad Freight Car are also well worth acquiring for early US information.
 
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