The A5

[Martin Shaw]

In case your worried this is not about a road from London to Holyhead. Well I have, after two weeks of sorting, managed to return the dining room to its intended purpose, not that we eat in there very frequently, so I managed to escape to the workshop and decide what I might tackle first. The box on the top of the pile had merely the inscription "A5" and it was v heavy. Inside was this beauty.

Now I don't suppose it has turned a wheel in 20 years, and is I think the only locomotive that my friend actually completed. It was built to coarse scale standards with outside third rail pickup, the pickups are under the front footstep and just in front of the pony wheel. It probably weighs 4-5 pounds, 2 kilos in new money, and I can remember it running round with 10 Exley bogies behind it. It also came with these,

a set of turned wheels axles and crankpins, a choice of backheads, and replacement chimney and dome. I'll dismantle it tomorrow and see what I've got.
Regards
Martin

 

[richard carr]

Martin

Thats a lovely body it just needs a better chassis to go with it.

Richard

 

[adrian]

That's a very tidy build given it's age - the replacement wheels look nice and clean as well.

 

[Martin Shaw]

I have something of a dilemma as to how much I do to it without fundamentally altering what is essentially a memory of my late friend. He was intending to 2 rail it obviously which I will do, but I had a swift peak underneath, simple it ain't. Pics to follow. It is probably 30 years old, the replacement wheels are from Dennis Leakey.
Regards
Martin

 

[Martin Shaw]

Thanks for all the likes.
After close of play in the workshop, I did some research, primarily to find a bottle with something interesting in it, Lagavulin is it's medicinal name, but also to have a look at the relevant RCTS volume. It appears that the model is based on the original GCR locos with the bigger than average loading gauge, hence the bulbous dome and tall lum. I think it was intended that it should represent the Hawthorn Leslie built locos that operated in the North East. More on this aspect in due course. This afternoon was spent stripping and cleaning yet more of the Cowells ME90 lathe that has also come my way, after which I started dismantling the beast.
This is a view of the underpinnings.


Typical coarse standard battleship construction, but notice inboard of the wheels, cylindrical housings with ballraces therein. Given that the leading and trailing drivers had free side play they weren't doing much. Also note the outside third collectors, sprung by piano wire, actually wholly reliable and even after 20 years, applying power caused it all to rotate. Try doing that with 2 rail wipers. Anyway taking the body off showed this,

which has been supporting a body stuffed with lead, some of which will have to go, it's far too heavy, which is why it needed a Crailcrest to drag itself around. The nett outcome is that the frames are shot, it rolls beautifully but regrettably on only three wheels, it's had many additional frame spacers, necessarily too close together for FS, the rear pony truck was a sprung construction that had no connection to the side frames, and so on.

A shame in a way but I suppose better to sort it out. JPL advertise two frame kits for an A5 which is probably the way I'll go after a phone call, and Yeadon is available from Booklaw for a tennerish.
There we are, as Richard Carr said last night "lovely body but needs a better chassis", he was right. More when some progress is made.

Regards
Martin

 

[OzzyO]

Why not do a new set of frames to modern speck. But do up the old frames so that you could take it to someone's layout that uses outside third rail?

OzzyO.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Ozzy
In all my 63 years I have only personally known two 7mm layouts that used outside third collection, one a club tail chaser for exhibitions which whilst immensely popular was life expired, and the club members responsible were all getting on a bit and they felt it had become too much of a burden. The other was a private layout that was dismantled on the owners death. They were connected by the personalities involved. There are undoubtedly such layouts in existence but I don't lnow where.

Secondly I do not want to change the loco too much, therefore the by necessity new chassis has to be the part, so springing/compensation whatever is in my opinion changing the character of the machine. I am also not overly convinced that you get a necessarily better performing chassis by virtue purely of complex underpinnings. I am planning to explore sprung axleboxes in a new build, but I need to sell off the acquisitions to purchase a milling machine.

Thats my rationale, but out of interest what would your spec be for a new chassis?

Regards
Martin

 

[OzzyO]

Hello Martin,

go for one of the frame kits from JPL, I'd go for one that has sprung drivers, plunger pick-ups (I use ones for 4mm locos) and Slater's wheels unless you can get a set of Harris (a bit like pulling hens teeth), for the motor and gearbox I'd look at MSC Models and use the MT Helical at about 30:1 ratio, these use a Cannon motor and are very good.

ATB

OzzyO.

 

[Mike W]

Many good quality older models were updated in the 50s and 60s after finescale and 2-rail became popular. I am thinking of engines by Beeson, Miller and others that had been built in the 20s and 30s. Outside Third was considered by some to be less visible than centre third, again indicating a quality model. I would keep as much original as possible and if you can find new ball races the same size keep the frames and just fit plunger pickups one side - that was the way it was often done.

Really, really heavy engines were popular amongst people of that era like Leyland Barrett, Norris and those with large layouts and deep pockets. It was the easiest way to get adhesion when they ran 50-wagon goods trains and also the inertia make the engines controllable at very slow speed, something few models could do back then.

Oh, and keep the "new" wheels you have and the Crailcrest - it was a great motor in its day and entirely suitable.

Mike

 

[Martin Shaw]

My thanks to Ozzy and Mike for their thoughts, they have helped the decision making. I have ordered from Mr JPL a chassis kit, which he tells me should be with me by the end of the month. I would reuse the Crailcrest if it had a gearbox. In the loco as built gear mesh was enabled by hand crafted bits of brass fixed to various frame spacers, all well and good but a bit hit and miss. I know it can be done but an axlehung gearbox/motor combination is just so much easier, so a new component will be required in due course. I am much taken with an ABC unit in my J36 so thats a possibility, but no doubt the MSC version is just as good, and possibly a tad cheaper.

Ball race bearings, I can see the logic of them, but again it's extra work and realistically the engine isn't going to do much in the future so it'll probably be plain bearings.

I have as shown earlier a nice set of wheels which to my eye look fine. No doubt a set of AGH wheels would be v nice, but do they exist, would I be able to afford them if they do, the cost of them would be a lot more than the engines worth. So not really an option. Besides when it's whizzing round can you tell the difference. The choices have been made and I await the arrival of materials.

Meanwhile on with sorting out the body.

Regards
Martin

 

[Martin Shaw]

Managed to escape for a bit this evening. The engine was carrying excessive weight so the first job was to sort this out. The tanks were each filled with two pieces of lead, seen here held in place by a horizontal angle vaguely soldered between the cab and the tank front, with two vertical strips hanging the angle off the boiler.


I had a go with the iron, absolutely no joy, the mass was wicking the heat away too quickly. Resort to the torch, and after a brave pill the bottom of the straps were heated and a screwdriver lifted them clear. Allowed to cool momentarily they were then gripped in pliers and heat wicked up the strip to desolder it from the boiler. It seems to work, nothing fell off, the only minor casualty being the tank filler castings that are now loose.
A razor saw cut the angle approximately mid way and a gentle tug removed them. What you can't see is that the frame extension are bent around into the tanks and lifting the piece of lead was going to bend them in the wrong direction, so hacking with a blunt instrument took the corner off the lead allowing them to be removed.

The smokebox/boiler had something rattly in it. Inside the boiler was a crudely soldered tinplate disc, remove that I thought and something will probably come out. I didn't dare put the torch in there so persevered with the iron and loosened the disc. I gave it a shake and lots of bits came out.

The flash has changed the colour, they are the same as lead, pretty dense anyway.

The nett result is that the lead weighed 18oz, the chip material 12oz, so nigh on 2lbs, and the engine still weighs 21/2 lbs. The rest is located in the bunker, accessing which is not easy and of course the engine is now severely unbalanced, so the answer maybe to put a slug of lead back in the boiler front.

There is also an interesting set in the rear buffer beam but you only see it if the engine is upside down so I'll probably leave it alone. Mr Yeadon's invaluable register should arrive tomorrow so some studying will be in order.
Regards
Martin

 

[dibateg]

It's always difficult taking over a model from a friend that is no longer with us. Does it stay as a monument, or do we develop it to our own requirements? I'm sure we all have different feelings on this. My view is that you develop it so that it gives further pleasure and has a further lease of life without forgetting it's origins. Years ago I had a 4mm J39 that belonged to the late Stephen Gradidge - it was in LNER livery, which I quickly changed to BR livery after recording it photographically. It performed stirling service in several layouts before moving on again to give someone else pleasure ( I think it's on Little Bytham now ). I always made sure to tell folk where it came from.
The A5 is a cracking model, I'm looking forward to see it develop.

Regards
Tony

 

[Tony West]

My thre'pence worth...for whatever that may be worth !.
It is as you say a very nicely put together model and looks to be well worth spending some time and effort upon.
There are a couple of 'cosmetic issues however .....
The piston tail rods that are poking out of the valve chest cover shouldn't be there, certainly not a Robinson feature and having checked whatever photos I have don't appear on the later HL built locos either.
Just in front of the water tanks are sand boxes mounted proud of the running plate, these were only a feature of the HL batch as all earlier locos had them below the running plate.
The cab front ....has the altered front spectacles that the LNE fitted. Originally there were two window either side of the firebox , these were altered to a single window each side but keeping the original 'outer shape'. HL locos had a different pattern to the front spectacles and a lower cab roof.
The framing below the smokebox is correct for the Robinson locos ....but not for the HL built ones , their frame top profile was markedly different.
So basically what you have ...if you decide to sympathetically correct it by removing the tail rods and sand boxes is a typical late 1920's onwards condition ex GCR A5...but as ever rule No1 applies !!!.....
Cheers, Tony.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Both Dibateg and Tony W have highlighted the great dilemma, how much to you do, even to the point of correcting the historical inaccuracies. I am certain that the original model is a scratchbuilt representation of a Gorton built A5. There is no indication of etched components, no nice tab and slots to align it all, and when you look inside it's all a bit crude. Tony has pointed out the obvious errors, where the valve spindle tail rod covers come from I really don't know, certainly not the GCR and the Hawthorn built ones didn't have them either. It seems the NER didn't use them either, certainly not on the 4-6-0T's. I expect if I take them off I'll be left with holes to fill, which given the location won't be easy. The sandboxes are indeed only correct for the Hawthorn engines, but removing them might be a challenge without major unwanted dismantling. Realistically if I do more than currently planned it ceases to be Keith's engine, and I might as well reduce it to it's parts and correct every wrong thing. This I do not want to do, so it'll stay as it is, possibly replace the buffers because they're horrible, and live with the rest that's wrong. I'll put the new chassis in and when I give it a run it'll nicely remind me of my friend. As you say, Rule 1, but I've got more than enough other unbuilt projects to get correct.

Regards
Martin

 

[Martin Shaw]

Not much has happened this week, largely due to awaiting components, funding has been received for a motor/gearbox so that can be ordered. The choice is between an ABC VML2 24:1 or an MSC helical 30:1 2 stage. I think these are the right ones, but if I'm wrong please steer me in the right direction. I thought to fill in I would pick up a Connoisseur single bolster twin pack that had been opened and just started, only to be laid low by a horrible flu like bug, no more description necessary I feel. In the meantime since you like pics, here's one from today,


a bit you don't normally see, a replacement regulator valve for an Austerity 0-6-0T. The original has become so wasted that the clevis pin that goes throught the yet to be machined hole in the tongue catches on the J pipe preventing the regulator fully opening.

Regards
Martin

 

[Martin Shaw]

There has been, I realise, something of a paucity of recent posts that might lead you to conclude that nothing much has been done, not so mon amis. After the initial flurry of activity with bits ordered, and awaiting delivery, I decided I had to properly sort out what I had, and what I had also recently acquired. First off, the workshop was a mess, stuff everywhere and no idea what actually was where. I decided the lighting needed upgrading, the two thirty year old battens were past it, and as you can see below, I can now see as well. The new improved lumen levels.


These are some of the bits acquired that need to be disposed of, I'm never going to do all of this if I live for years beyond my likely expectation. It is however hardly "small ads" so we'll see in due course.

One of the problems that came to light was this

Wire stock, thankfully this was all still in marked packaging but there were boxes with considerable quantities rolling around loose. Several evenings in front of the telly with the vernier gauge sorted it out, at least Coronation Street passed less painfully, so I hatched a plan and came up with this

the Shaw Mk1 wire storage rack, the timber was scrap lying around in the garage, the tubes and end caps £12 odd. I claim no originality, test tube racks from school chemistry lessons seems most likely.

The postman has been busy,

A search on WT showed this to be the hot stick of choice so I got one, my soldering will now be of course impeccable

At the end of this too long discourse he has also brought me something really useful

A chassis and motor for the A5. I resisted the urge to empty the package until ready.

Thats enough wittering from me, I have to wizz off down south at the weekend to see my father in hospital who will, God willing, be 93 in a months time. He could tell you all about the LNER showing off Silver Link at Cambridge in 1937, but breakfast this morning, not a chance. More next time including actual modelling.

Regards
Martin

 

[richard carr]

Martin

That soldering iron is great, I wish I had bought one years before I did. You won't be disappointed.

Richard

 

[Dan Randall]

Nice man cave Martin. I especially like the British Railways Street Direction Sign - I must add a Scottish Region example to my collection one day.


Regards

Dan

 

[Martin Shaw]

Thanks for all the likes, especially since my post was semi coherent ramblings rather than models.

Dan

Yes it is quite a reasonable space. When SWMBO decided we needed to move, having converted the attic in the last place I was dismayed, fearing having to do it all over again. When we viewed the Towers, the fact that it was already done almost convinced me that moving wasn't so bad. The fact it has taken over 4 years to sort the place out, and it isn't finished yet, is one of the reasons modelling has only recently started again. You'll appreciate that the direction sign, as well as being a nice thing to have, is also part of the extremely high rainfall contingency, as it this

Genuine Somerset & Dorset, albeit after the WR took over the northern half. I have no idea what it's worth but given it's origins, something at least.

It is a horrible day here so after lunch I feel a venture to the workshop is in order.

Regards
Martin

 

[Rob Pulham]

Hi Martin,

I dunno about the sign, I am much more interested in the LNER Stock on the shelf behind