daifly
Western Thunderer
Hi Tony
It's an odd choice. The driving wheel axle hubs and crankpin hubs are so wrong. The crankpin is in-line with a spoke rather than between spokes as it should be. Even the bogie wheels look odd. The only things that seem to be accurate are the diameters and numbers of spokes! The sad thing is that you will do your usual splendid job of building it and the 'wrong' underpinnings will substantially detract from the look of the completed model.
Dave
adrian
Flying Squad
I'm not sure it's that simple and clear cut, although I know very little about GWR locos so probably wrong on several counts. The thing is Mark Wood doesn't actually sell castings for a Manor per se, however he does have castings for a Grange which does have the crank-pin in line with a spoke and on his site he says this wheel was suitable for the early batch of Manors built. Definitive google images are scant on details but there is this one of Erlestoke Manor which does seem to have the crankpin inline with the spoke. Also the bogie wheels show a heavy tread similar to the that on the model. So perhaps not a million miles out - as always I would work from an actual photo of the specific loco.
dibateg
Western Thunderer
Thanks chaps - it is what it is, the wheels could always be changed..
This locomotive will have to negotiate 4 foot radius curves, so inevitably there will be a few compromises. One prominent feature I wanted to represent the ATC pick up, so I scratched up a representation of the mounting bracket and added the connection cable - I know it doesn't go back to the top of the bogie, but that will hidden from most view points. I've moved the relief valves out, at least they are there and hopefully deceive the eye. Actually the cylinder cut outs are not too noticeable when the loco is sitting on the track. A little more cleaning and tidying to do - that camera is cruel!
Without having full inside motion, the frames looked a bit empty, so I also scratched up a representation of the weighshaft, I'm sure I've seen a casting for the return spring - David Andrews maybe. The brakes have to move to release the wheels so you can just see the end of the 14BA screw that joins the cross shaft to the pull rods in front of the middle driver. The brake hangers should have a bracket over the top. I've not worked out a tidy way of doing that...
It doesn't look so rough and ready when it is together, nearly there... I've built it with 2 live steam injectors as I couldn't find any info on the exhaust steam one. Nice looking loco though, isn't it?
So those GW experts that might know - is the deck at the same height in the intermediate tender as the standard 3500 gallon one? Does anyone have any detailed info/drawings on them?
This locomotive will have to negotiate 4 foot radius curves, so inevitably there will be a few compromises. One prominent feature I wanted to represent the ATC pick up, so I scratched up a representation of the mounting bracket and added the connection cable - I know it doesn't go back to the top of the bogie, but that will hidden from most view points. I've moved the relief valves out, at least they are there and hopefully deceive the eye. Actually the cylinder cut outs are not too noticeable when the loco is sitting on the track. A little more cleaning and tidying to do - that camera is cruel!
Without having full inside motion, the frames looked a bit empty, so I also scratched up a representation of the weighshaft, I'm sure I've seen a casting for the return spring - David Andrews maybe. The brakes have to move to release the wheels so you can just see the end of the 14BA screw that joins the cross shaft to the pull rods in front of the middle driver. The brake hangers should have a bracket over the top. I've not worked out a tidy way of doing that...
It doesn't look so rough and ready when it is together, nearly there... I've built it with 2 live steam injectors as I couldn't find any info on the exhaust steam one. Nice looking loco though, isn't it?
So those GW experts that might know - is the deck at the same height in the intermediate tender as the standard 3500 gallon one? Does anyone have any detailed info/drawings on them?
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Yes.
Actually, "do" rather than "did" because Cookham had one when bought direct from BR as did/does Hall Agnes Burton.
Elliot 84A
Western Thunderer
I hate to say this but the wheels are all wrong, hubs, spokes, spokes to outer flange, everything. You can just get away having the spoke inline with the crankpin as the early 43's and 51's had this but thats about it, sorry. That's what you should be looking for, that's the later 5'-8" driver done to the works drawing, that was my first of test casting I did last year
Elliot 84A
Western Thunderer
No I gathered that Tony, no accounting for other peoples tastes
jjnewitt
Active Member
I'm sorry but this is just not right. Manors had both wheels with both types of crankpin position and the only way of knowing which one was on a particular locomotive at what point is a dated photograph!
In an attempt to clarify the misinformation being given in this thread there were actually 3 types of GWR 5' 8" fitted to the Large Praries, Moguls, Granges and Manors. Crank in line with a small hub, crank in line with a large hub and then the crank between the spokes. They were developments of each other, in that order, and they were all interchangeable.
The first 20 Manors were built with Mogul wheels which had the crank in line, the last 10 with crank between the spoke. After that the wheels could be changed at overhaul and anything could go on. From my own visual observations whilst reasearching potential locos most of the Moguls, Granges and Manors most of the time had crank in line wheels (the Granges like the first 20 Manors used Moguls wheels). The crank between spoke wheels came relatively late to the party and there were less of them made. They only really became common on the Granges and Manors (aside from the BR built batch) in the late 50s and 60s when, presumably, withdrawls meant older wheels could be disposed of.
It is not necessarily that easy to tell which crank pin position is on a wheelset when fitted to the loco but one tell tale sign, on the front and rear wheelsets at least, is the balance weights. They covered 5 spokes on the crank in line wheels and 6 on the crank between spoke wheels. The centre wheels were the same on both types.
A small selection of Manors with crank in line wheels:
7802
7805
7815
7826
7827
Note that 2 of the above are BR built engines. Plenty of photographs of Manors and Granges about though it is not always easy to tell which type of wheel is fitted. It's worth having a dig around if anyone is interested in this sort of thing.
Whatever the merits of the actual casstings used on the Manor build on this thread the crankpin position may not be one of them.
Justin
jjnewitt
Active Member
A quick addition to my previous post. Whilst the wheels fitted to a loco were generally of the same type they could also be found mixed together. This picture of 7828 taken in the mid fifties is interesting as the loco has been fitted with two different types of wheel and it also shows the first type of 5' 8" wheel. On the front axle is one of the early small boss, crank in line wheelsets mentioned before whilst the other two are the later pin between type. This loco is also interesting as it was the first of the Manors to be given lined green by BR in '56.
Justin
Justin
Elliot 84A
Western Thunderer
Justin I think you've misinterpreted what I was trying to get across. The point of me saying that you can get away with the crank pin inline (as per Tony's wheels) is exactly for the reason you stated that the early Manors were rebuilds of 43XX'x which had the old version of wheel with the crankpin inline with a spoke. Thats probably the only thing semi-plausible on these wheels apart from the amount of spokes and O/D of the wheel, eveything else just doesn't look right
The photo of my (later style) wheel was to show the design of the 5'-8" wheel not the fact that it should be on a Manor. The GW swapped and changed its wheels all the time during rebuilds, you only have to look at 5043 to see that so if you want correct then you need photo's of the locomotive in question at the period you're choosing to model it.
So you see the crankpin position is kind of a merit as regards to the accuracy of the wheel Tony's been given to use and not a lot else as far as the castings go
E.
dibateg
Western Thunderer
Thanks for the input chaps - interesting stuff. That's what makes building these models so interesting, there is an infinite minutia of detail! I know a lot more about Manors than when I started this project.
I had seen that picture Justin - I didn't spot the different leading drivers though.
Just as an aside Elliot- how are your wheel sets insulated?
Regards
Tony
I had seen that picture Justin - I didn't spot the different leading drivers though.
Just as an aside Elliot- how are your wheel sets insulated?
Regards
Tony
FuntleyWorks
Western Thunderer
When he finally gets them to me Tony they will be insulated the same way as AGH wheels with hub insulation.
Elliot 84A
Western Thunderer
Justin, no need to apologise, things are easily lost in translation on here
Tony, my wheels insulate the same way as AGH wheels do but I'm also looking at an alternative type of insulation so that you don't have to put the tufnol tophat in the wheel.
E.
Brian McKenzie
Western Thunderer
Aside from any prototypical inaccuracies, the appearance of the wheel castings has been altered by unsympathetic turning processes.
