What makes a good kit?
- Thread starter 28ten
- Start date
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Cynric,
For me three things (and the current project is a case in point):
Accuracy
Adaptability
Good instructions
Accuracy; first of all you've got to be able to make a model of at least one example of the prototype and the parts must fit together.
Adaptability; how many kits have I come across which make no allowance for cab interior details, working motion, compensation or fitting anything else other than a Mashima and 40:1. I know I have ridicuously high standards for the running gear of my models; but I don't do it because I want a hard time; I do it because the locos have to work for their existence.
Instructions; It'd be nice if they contained a good set of prototype notes covering the detail differences (where known), a copy of the GA at twice scale size and for them to have both text and pics.
Oh yeah - and it'd be nice if the kit was of a Urie S15...
Steph (not going to give examples of either good or bad 'cos I'm a bit of coward!)
Mmmm chocolate worms....
For me three things (and the current project is a case in point):
Accuracy
Adaptability
Good instructions
Accuracy; first of all you've got to be able to make a model of at least one example of the prototype and the parts must fit together.
Adaptability; how many kits have I come across which make no allowance for cab interior details, working motion, compensation or fitting anything else other than a Mashima and 40:1. I know I have ridicuously high standards for the running gear of my models; but I don't do it because I want a hard time; I do it because the locos have to work for their existence.
Instructions; It'd be nice if they contained a good set of prototype notes covering the detail differences (where known), a copy of the GA at twice scale size and for them to have both text and pics.
Oh yeah - and it'd be nice if the kit was of a Urie S15...
Steph (not going to give examples of either good or bad 'cos I'm a bit of coward!)
Mmmm chocolate worms....
Jordan
Mid-Western Thunderer
Steph pretty much nails it...
1 - Accurate parts that fit !!
2 - Good instructions and diagrams
3 - Some of the really hard work done for you.... okay this one is a bit selfish, but for instance with my Class 22 I really appreciated the main body-shell roof being pre-rolled. In fact without knowing this beforehand I might not have even bought the kit. Now anyone with some decent Rolling Bars would have no problem, but for those of us who only want to build a few kits, buying specialist tools that wouldn't get much use is just un-economic and off-putting *thinks Chassis Jigs*. :-[
Sorry, that's drifting towards "price" again... I'll shut up now...
P.S. Love the can of chocolate worms!! Must look out for one of those...
1 - Accurate parts that fit !!
2 - Good instructions and diagrams
3 - Some of the really hard work done for you.... okay this one is a bit selfish, but for instance with my Class 22 I really appreciated the main body-shell roof being pre-rolled. In fact without knowing this beforehand I might not have even bought the kit. Now anyone with some decent Rolling Bars would have no problem, but for those of us who only want to build a few kits, buying specialist tools that wouldn't get much use is just un-economic and off-putting *thinks Chassis Jigs*. :-[
Sorry, that's drifting towards "price" again... I'll shut up now...
P.S. Love the can of chocolate worms!! Must look out for one of those...
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Jordan,
H'mm, it appears we're in grave danger of agreeing again
I think some of the pre-formed issues are very prototype dependent. For example on a diesel or coach I would expect a preformed roof or body shell. But for steam locos pre-rolled boilers can be a real s*d. Particularly if they're not rolled properly, or have etched boiler bands (in which case I re-roll them inside out), or they need half-etched rivet dimples pressing out, or...
The accuracy thing should extend to provision of designed-in accuracy or provision of any necessary special-to-type jigs. Step forward MOK and David Andrews. Oh bu88er, I said I wasn't going to mention names - now look what you've made me do! Incidentally when discussing pre-forming, the MOK 'Q1' makes a good case for good design and not pre-forming. I have one within reach of the bench which I'm building for relaxation when the current inhabitant of the 'bench gets too much.
It's also worth mentioning that there are chassis jigs and 'chassis jigs' - I use a set of taper-ended axles (from FourTrack/Meteor), three 12" lengths of 3/16" silver steel and a pad of graph paper. Total value probably in the region of ?20.
Steph (not quite as cowardly as I thought!)
H'mm, it appears we're in grave danger of agreeing again
I think some of the pre-formed issues are very prototype dependent. For example on a diesel or coach I would expect a preformed roof or body shell. But for steam locos pre-rolled boilers can be a real s*d. Particularly if they're not rolled properly, or have etched boiler bands (in which case I re-roll them inside out), or they need half-etched rivet dimples pressing out, or...
The accuracy thing should extend to provision of designed-in accuracy or provision of any necessary special-to-type jigs. Step forward MOK and David Andrews. Oh bu88er, I said I wasn't going to mention names - now look what you've made me do! Incidentally when discussing pre-forming, the MOK 'Q1' makes a good case for good design and not pre-forming. I have one within reach of the bench which I'm building for relaxation when the current inhabitant of the 'bench gets too much.
It's also worth mentioning that there are chassis jigs and 'chassis jigs' - I use a set of taper-ended axles (from FourTrack/Meteor), three 12" lengths of 3/16" silver steel and a pad of graph paper. Total value probably in the region of ?20.
Steph (not quite as cowardly as I thought!)
Neil
Western Thunderer
Depends, but for my money (and not a lot of it) top of the tree are the old Airfix kits. Cheap enough not to intimidate, easy to butcher and though they may look a bit crude compared to some of the recent Parkside products they've tackled some ambitious shapes that others have bottled.
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
I'd add another crucial factor - right choice of material for the particular component. Have we mentioned whitemetal W irons? ;D
Anything vulnerable to be in cast brass or nickel-silver - vac and steam pipes, whistles etc. No whitemetal anywhere near valve gear or support brackets.
Beyond that, everyone has their own preferences. I want my boilers flat and without location holes for handrail knobs etc. Footplates must be etched. Decent drawings are a must. I'm sure I'll think of something else later.
Richard
Anything vulnerable to be in cast brass or nickel-silver - vac and steam pipes, whistles etc. No whitemetal anywhere near valve gear or support brackets.
Beyond that, everyone has their own preferences. I want my boilers flat and without location holes for handrail knobs etc. Footplates must be etched. Decent drawings are a must. I'm sure I'll think of something else later.
Richard
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Steph has hit the nail rather well.... to which I wish to add:-
[1] the ability to build what the kit purports to be without any modification or unexpected extra parts.
[2] pointers as to where any extra / additional / alternative parts can be obtained.
[3] instructions which are relevant to the parts in the box.
[4] no extra parts which ought not to be in the box at all.
There is a 7mm coach kit in the cupboard which cannot be built "as is" because the floor part is generic and the prototype did not have the break arrangement as per the model - and given that the respective parts are etches and castings which fit into a machined recess in the floor then this looks like a new floor / solebar / trussing.
Slater's kits often include remarks that alternative parts, such as etch for plastic bogies or sprung axleguards, are available from their stand - this strategy keeps the initial price low and provides for easier construction whilst allowing the more experienced modeller to improve appearance / fit / function.
Said 7mm kit includes details of how to cut the floor and underframe for fitting the support plate of the buckeye coupling.... I learnt subsequently, after hours of work to fit same, that the support plate and the corresponding instructions were not relevant to the prototype and had been included in error (in each of the five kits in the cupboard?).
Whether the box is appropriate for further use is not as important as labelling which makes clear what is inside the box and what can be made from the parts - inclusive of suitability to scale and gauge (more so now that there are kits emerging which are intended for S7 rather than FS).
At which point I shall stop because.... I am doing a Slater's wagon and the instructions make me want to wall / head / bang etc..
regards, Graham
[1] the ability to build what the kit purports to be without any modification or unexpected extra parts.
[2] pointers as to where any extra / additional / alternative parts can be obtained.
[3] instructions which are relevant to the parts in the box.
[4] no extra parts which ought not to be in the box at all.
There is a 7mm coach kit in the cupboard which cannot be built "as is" because the floor part is generic and the prototype did not have the break arrangement as per the model - and given that the respective parts are etches and castings which fit into a machined recess in the floor then this looks like a new floor / solebar / trussing.
Slater's kits often include remarks that alternative parts, such as etch for plastic bogies or sprung axleguards, are available from their stand - this strategy keeps the initial price low and provides for easier construction whilst allowing the more experienced modeller to improve appearance / fit / function.
Said 7mm kit includes details of how to cut the floor and underframe for fitting the support plate of the buckeye coupling.... I learnt subsequently, after hours of work to fit same, that the support plate and the corresponding instructions were not relevant to the prototype and had been included in error (in each of the five kits in the cupboard?).
Whether the box is appropriate for further use is not as important as labelling which makes clear what is inside the box and what can be made from the parts - inclusive of suitability to scale and gauge (more so now that there are kits emerging which are intended for S7 rather than FS).
At which point I shall stop because.... I am doing a Slater's wagon and the instructions make me want to wall / head / bang etc..
regards, Graham
G
Graham Powell
Guest
What makes a good kit : an 5 gallon cooking oil tin and piercing saw.....
rgds
Graham Powell
rgds
Graham Powell
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
Thought of some other things.
Parts that reflect the purpose of the original.
For example; cast loco driving wheel springs. The originals are massive, supporting upwards of 10 tons each at times. How does a single thickness of brass represent that? I've seen etched brass coil springs too.
Valve gear - often much thicker than manufacturers allow, things like big ends especially. I don't mind etch laminations, but let's have the proper number of etches. That will allow properly forked ends too.
Brake gear. Again, cast hangers and shoes, proper brake spreaders and clevises on the pull rods.
I know, I've just put up the price of the kit by ?100. It probably just shows a) how anally retentive I am about chassis and b) in general, how discerning a group we are.
I also realise that the above relates solely to kettles.
Diesels, I have mixed views. I would love David Parkins to do a D600 warship or a CoBo, but I don't expect either to happen, so we are probably stuck with JLTRT. I do enjoy building their models, but I think they went backwards when they stopped doing etched chassis, as they did for the Hymek and 44 at least. I shall post a pic of my 44 bogies later, but they were designed by Malcolm Mitchell and were wonderful kits in their own right. Nor am I concerned that with 10 on, they will leave the buffer beam behind, attached to the leading coach coupling hook
Richard
Parts that reflect the purpose of the original.
For example; cast loco driving wheel springs. The originals are massive, supporting upwards of 10 tons each at times. How does a single thickness of brass represent that? I've seen etched brass coil springs too
.Valve gear - often much thicker than manufacturers allow, things like big ends especially. I don't mind etch laminations, but let's have the proper number of etches. That will allow properly forked ends too.
Brake gear. Again, cast hangers and shoes, proper brake spreaders and clevises on the pull rods.
I know, I've just put up the price of the kit by ?100. It probably just shows a) how anally retentive I am about chassis and b) in general, how discerning a group we are.
I also realise that the above relates solely to kettles.
Diesels, I have mixed views. I would love David Parkins to do a D600 warship or a CoBo, but I don't expect either to happen, so we are probably stuck with JLTRT. I do enjoy building their models, but I think they went backwards when they stopped doing etched chassis, as they did for the Hymek and 44 at least. I shall post a pic of my 44 bogies later, but they were designed by Malcolm Mitchell and were wonderful kits in their own right. Nor am I concerned that with 10 on, they will leave the buffer beam behind, attached to the leading coach coupling hook
Richard
iploffy
OC Blue Brigade
Being a recent convert to build your own I would say easy to follow Instructions then materials used and how easy they are to use, ease of construction and then finished product. With some of the kits I have put together they look ok but dont scratch the surface as you might not like what you find
Ian
Ian
Phill Dyson
Western Thunderer
A bit off topic, but I would also like to see a range of reasonable quality & reasonably priced RTR diesel bogies ......to save me doing what IMO are the boring bits ;D
Cheers Phill :scratch:
Cheers Phill :scratch:
28ten
Guv'nor
My views are very similarDikitriki said:Thought of some other things.
Parts that reflect the purpose of the original.
For example; cast loco driving wheel springs. The originals are massive, supporting upwards of 10 tons each at times. How does a single thickness of brass represent that? I've seen etched brass coil springs too
Valve gear - often much thicker than manufacturers allow, things like big ends especially. I don't mind etch laminations, but let's have the proper number of etches. That will allow properly forked ends too.
Brake gear. Again, cast hangers and shoes, proper brake spreaders and clevises on the pull rods.
I know, I've just put up the price of the kit by ?100. It probably just shows a) how anally retentive I am about chassis and b) in general, how discerning a group we are.
I also realise that the above relates solely to kettles.
Diesels, I have mixed views. I would love David Parkins to do a D600 warship or a CoBo, but I don't expect either to happen, so we are probably stuck with JLTRT. I do enjoy building their models, but I think they went backwards when they stopped doing etched chassis, as they did for the Hymek and 44 at least. I shall post a pic of my 44 bogies later, but they were designed by Malcolm Mitchell and were wonderful kits in their own right. Nor am I concerned that with 10 on, they will leave the buffer beam behind, attached to the leading coach coupling hook
Richard
I want the appropriate material to be used for each part ie etching where appropriate, Lostwax brass when strength is needed, buffers and brakeblocks spring to mind, and whitemetal for parts that will be painted and that need drilling (In another post, John D mentioned the difficulty in drilling rock hard brass castings with tiny drills).
Strangely, instructions worry me less, but this might be because I usually ignore them anyway :-[
Coming back to the last part of Dikitriki's post, when testing the Western I managed to rip the cab off when double heading a 14 coach train on the local outdoor track
fortunately I could just glue it back and make good. lesson learned make sure all the chassis to body screws are fitted. In a similar vein I fractured a resin bogie when testing and I suspect this is due to the hammer action from the less than level outdoor track, and very heavy loads, but its something to think about for the outdoor types,
G
Graham Powell
Guest
Very interesting thread this one. I find that the trouble with most kits is that they are not designed for electrically powered, working model locomotives.
They might be scaled down from works drawings but the most important thing is the pick ups. They are useless without properly arranged , easily adjusted working pick ups. I've had fabulous kit built engines here with bits of hair like p/bronze wire bent all over the place to get round sand pipes etc . Completely useless which is why they end up here for me to sort out. Forked ends to valve gear. The real thing had forked ends , why not the model?. I solder bits on the back of valve gear which I then drill through to make a formed section. On some kits the clearances between metal brake gear and live wheels whilst they might be prototypical are a recipe for disaster. As a pro builder I could write volumes on the wretched things which is why for my own models I use tin cans ( actually its difficult to get decent tin plate these days so I use nickel silver.
regards to one and all and keep the interesting opinions coming. Maybe some manufacturer will read these and take notice...
rgds
Graham Powell
:wave:
They might be scaled down from works drawings but the most important thing is the pick ups. They are useless without properly arranged , easily adjusted working pick ups. I've had fabulous kit built engines here with bits of hair like p/bronze wire bent all over the place to get round sand pipes etc . Completely useless which is why they end up here for me to sort out. Forked ends to valve gear. The real thing had forked ends , why not the model?. I solder bits on the back of valve gear which I then drill through to make a formed section. On some kits the clearances between metal brake gear and live wheels whilst they might be prototypical are a recipe for disaster. As a pro builder I could write volumes on the wretched things which is why for my own models I use tin cans ( actually its difficult to get decent tin plate these days so I use nickel silver.
regards to one and all and keep the interesting opinions coming. Maybe some manufacturer will read these and take notice...
rgds
Graham Powell
:wave:
Phill Dyson
Western Thunderer
Thanks for the tip Cynric :scratch:28ten said:Coming back to the last part of Dikitriki's post, when testing the Western I managed to rip the cab off when double heading a 14 coach train on the local outdoor track
, It's begining to look like "Two steps forward, three steps back" , my Western built from a thirty year old kit is capable & already has covered god knows how many miles without problems on my outdoor line, It looks doubtful weather my JLTRT Western will do the same without some re-engineering which should have already been done at the price 
............. :scratch: I think the only reason they dropped proper brass bogies is so they can claim their kits are solder-free ???Phill :vista:
Phill Dyson
Western Thunderer
Yes they always have been good value for money ???Dikitriki said:I believe you can still get the etched bogies for the Hymek and Peak, you just have to pay a premium to get them (IIRC, somewhere about ?80)
KERLUNK
That's the sound of Jordan hitting the floor.
Richard
iploffy
OC Blue Brigade
I like that had me in stitchesDikitriki said:I believe you can still get the etched bogies for the Hymek and Peak, you just have to pay a premium to get them (IIRC, somewhere about ?80)
KERLUNK
That's the sound of Jordan hitting the floor.
Richard
Keep up at the back that man
Ian