Wheels for 03 & 04 shunters?

alcazar

Guest
'Twas Christian Cresswell, and a fine build it was.

I, too, would be up for some "proper" 03 wheels.Would they be part of the Slaters range, or direct from you?
What about wheels for the ex-WR PWM's, PWM651-4, 97651-4?

Kits are now available, (Mercian) but again, the wheels are a compromise.
97651-4 had 3' 4" wheels, 97650 had wheels of 3' 2.5". 97650 isn't yet available in 7mm, but I have hopes of Judith Edge....... c'mon Michael, you know it makes sense!

On careful checking, I see that Slaters make a specific wheel for the BR class 07...for which no kit now exists, but none for the 03, for which a kit DOES exist. Go figure.
 

SteadyRed

Western Thunderer
Good points, although there are a few in preservation with 3'3" wheels and skirts removed. Something to think about later.

I'm wondering, with the DJH a bloody good kit – and complete with wheels, motor, transfers, etc – why is it such a poor seller? I know internet forums are not the be-all-and-end-all of sales figures but I know of only 5 sales across MIGO, several incarnations of RMWeb and here, as well as the wider internet. I know roughly twice as many MMP 08s or the same amount of Judith Edge 06s, for example. Is it simply the initial price that gets in the way of what's actually in the box? Maybe it coincided with the release of the Bachmann RTRs? I'm not sure!

On at least two occasions I have placed an order with DJH for an 03 kit only to receive a phone call saying they don't have stock but will include me in the next batch to be produced. On each occasion several months pass before I heard anything from DJH, and the money intended for the 03 had gone elsewhere.

Maybe the kit would sell better if it was redly available?

Dave
 
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SteveO

Guest
I, too, would be up for some "proper" 03 wheels.Would they be part of the Slaters range, or direct from you?

I haven't negotiated exclusivity, and would have thought it would only come with a significant minimum order, so assume they would be incorporated into the Slaters range. I would have to pay for plastic tooling though (which is not a significant sum, but still!) so I don't see what advantage I would gain from that, apart from having them available.
 

SteadyRed

Western Thunderer
Thanks Steve, I thought handover was yesterday, just reread your post & it is next Tuesday.

Looking forward to hearing more & being able to support your enterprise.

Dave
 

Mike W

Western Thunderer
"I see that Slaters make a specific wheel for the BR class 07...for which no kit now exists, but none for the 03, for which a kit DOES exist. Go figure. "

Maybe the manufacturers of the 03 never asked Slaters to make them?

Hope you report good news on Tuesday.

Mike
 

alcazar

Guest
LOL...same manufacturer...both were originally MMP.

The 03 went, I think, to Eric Underhill , the 07 to he who cannot be named.......

Considering the real interest in 7mm scale and in diesels, I'm incredibly surprised that more small diesels aren't available.
 
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SteveO

Guest
While we're talking about lost things, what happened to Oakville? They had a lovely little 05 that I'd love to take over.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
I'm going to play devils advocate here and hark back to my 'commercial' Flightsim activities, knowing that someone else has something you're considering doing is often enough to stop yourself from carrying on.

It was often called bagsi's you'd start to build something, offer up a preview and another company a few days later would 'reveal' they're work in progress, there by bagsi'ing that product. Now, you have two choices, sod it and carry on and run the risk of duplication and reduced sales, or, can it and work on something else. If the other preview was genuine then caning it is probably the best recourse if your not too far developed, but, as was often the case, the other preview was simply a ruse to make you give up and they had no intention of continuing with their model.

Transposing that to 7mm, who, in their right mind, is going to start from scratch to mock up CAD etches for say an 07, knowing that at any time the 'other' may suddenly resume production. If your someone big like Heljan or say JLTRT then you can probably compete head to head, but for a cottage industry, of whch most of us here are, or would be, if venturing forth on such a project...it is a serious consideration.

There's quite a few 'small' locos I'd like to do, but, there's always a reason not to, sometimes unfounded, sometimes not.
 
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SteveO

Guest
Mick, are you talking about 03/04s or 05s or 07s? Must admit, you've lost me a bit.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Mick, are you talking about 03/04s or 05s or 07s? Must admit, you've lost me a bit.

Steve, anything really, it's a bit rambling so I'll try and break it down.

Basically if your going to produce a kit (lets take the 07) and you know one is already out there but in storage, then your taking a risk proceeding if you are a cottage industry. You could get halfway through and the other comes to market and usurps you.

Or, you announce your going to make kit x and almost immediately another competitor does the same, do you carry on or do you move onto something else, is the competitor really going to bear fruits or was their announcement a ruse to get you to stop for what ever reason they decided on, I.E. their announcement may not be genuine.

Taking the 03, as far as I can tell, there is only the DJH one and I doubt that's your target, so lets assume it's from another source, I believe the DJH one whilst still advertised isn't a shelf ready product, they are probably waiting for enough registered interests before running another batch.

So, yours will be in direct competition with theirs, brave move as the DJH one is quite good from what I can see. What will yours have that theirs doesn't, assuming they are of the same quality, is one banking on the fact that DJH currently doesn't have it on the shelf, is yours all brass etching as opposed to DJH white metal, etc, etc.

I've nothing against duplication, it gives users more choice and being blunt, drives up quality overall, but, if it was me, I'd be cautious about bringing something to market I know someone already has, unless I was confident that what I had mitigated theirs or offered something different enough to make it stand apart.

To close this, and back to Flightsim, I started and A10 Tank buster, spent months on it and when previewed on the forums, was almost instantly usurped by two other companies, one was an old model with promises of upgrades so would beat me to market, the other would take about the same time but was much higher fidelity (for those with super top end gaming PCs) In the end I and the rest of the development team decided to back down and work on the F14 Tomcat of which I left half way through for personal reasons.

Now, back to the A10, only one went to market, the upgraded one and was so poor that it sold very poorly and ours would have trumped it, the other I found out from a long time friend a few years later, was simply renders and posted to basically stop me and the other from proceeding.

To conclude in simple terms, be wary of those models that suddenly appear that might duplicate your work, they may be a clever ruse to make you stop and have no intention of being brought to market.
Also beware those which are supposedly in storage never to see the light of day again, because, they often have a habit of being resurrected when competition appears.

Make anymore sense, I suspect you already know all of this, but maybe not in my cack handed way of explaining things LOL.
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
As an peripheral observer with some interest in BR shunters but no direct knowledge of the marketplace, I think the time is right for more kits of the smaller diesel shunters. There are still modellers who want to build things, including locomotives that will fit in with their increasingly 'modern image' rtr purchases. Possibly not enough to make any real money, but relatively straight forward accurate etched kits should sell. Accuracy of the parts provided is important, as is buildability, provided the basis is there purchasers will add detail to suit themselves. There could also be a market for more advanced 'complete' kits.

In my opinion, the DJH 03 kit suffers because it is not as good as it should be for the price and production methods allow. DJH appear to have cut costs in the pattern making by using etches as the basis for the engine bonnet - the louvres are too flat and do not capture the angles or look of the prototype louvres. The pattern should have had milled louvres. So the completed models end up looking like cheaper etched kits. With properly formed louvres it would be hard to match with an all etched kit. As it is a considerably cheaper etched kit should look at least as good.
 
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SteveO

Guest
Ahh, I see. Well, I'm not that bothered with the competition as it stands right now as none of them are available. Even if they were, what I've bought are way down the pecking order in terms of quality, detail or ease of construction. They are loveable rogues rather than display case material!

Was that A10 game available for Mac? I'm pretty sure I had that! You should have continued with yours, I'm sure it would have been better. I was quite into flight sims in my yoof. I've still got Fly! 2K somewhere.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Ahh, I see. Well, I'm not that bothered with the competition as it stands right now as none of them are available. Even if they were, what I've bought are way down the pecking order in terms of quality, detail or ease of construction. They are loveable rogues rather than display case material!

Was that A10 game available for Mac? I'm pretty sure I had that! You should have continued with yours, I'm sure it would have been better. I was quite into flight sims in my yoof. I've still got Fly! 2K somewhere.

That's the ticket, set your stall, objectively focus on the market you want and build for that, there's nothing wrong with the lower end (in the nicest possible terms :thumbs:) of the spectrum, it's often a area forgotten or bypassed, or as we have all seen in the past, an area that has kits but which are priced in the next bracket up or even higher.

A realistic price that matches the value of the product will always sell.

I agree with the DJH 03, it looks nice but the white metal parts would have been much better as etchings and made up 3D louvres even 3D printed insets or cast insets, it's a shame as their 31 (I've one in a box under the desk) has much better vents and louvres.

No, the A-10 was a addon product for Microsoft FSx but I started way back in FS98 and the original combat series CFS1. The stand alone A-10 game (DCS) is a much better and bespoke package with weapons and scenarios but limited maps etc.....and it's on my list to get one day LOL. MS FSx is a fully global map but no weapons coding, except visuals. The only combat games they did were CFS1, 2 and 3.

I beta'd and helped develop CFS3, FS9 & FSx for MS as part of the aircraft model development side of things, none of my items were included but we (those on the 3rd party development team) got all the early copies of the game and pulled them apart and fed back to MS, sort of Alpha and Beta testers, it also meant that you got all the software development tools to make new items waaaay before anyone else, and all those had to be Alpha and Beta tested as well. It was fun, but hard graft toward the end.

A quick and only digression, some renders from my previous work.

Best selling item, Seaking package, ended up with sixteen variants, both Westland and Sikorsky.
Seaking Mk-3.jpg

A-10 final render before shelving, just starting some of the moving part animation codes.
A-10 Render_03.jpg

P-61, lost interest and gave it away to MAAM who then took it on as donationware, all sales going to help the restoration of the last surviving 1:1 to make it airworthy, last In heard it was still a on going project.
P-61A_12.jpg

Largest and most complex model (WIP) and largest into the simulator at that date. MS sims are limited to the maximum number of parts you can upload, according to the SDK it's 70'000, but with care and knowing how to bend the compiler, you can get 130'000 in, as far as I'm aware ( four years ago), this had never been beaten, you could only get away with this because your at sea and the sim doesn't need to draw any other scenery like trees, houses etc, other wise your PC slows to a crawling slide show, there are other tricks like LOD shapes and clever texture mapping that all help.
CV31 BHR_04.jpg

And finally a train for MS trainsim (first edition) I was on the development team for the second one and on the team for a third one by a private company....who paid for ten of us to go to the states for a week for a rail simulator think tank....very nice too if you can get it LOL, both of those fell through when the current one became available, MS pulled out and the other had more work in 1:1 railroads in the US to spare time for a game.
93XX_render_02.jpg

All of these are made in 3DSMax and thus technically any item in part or whole can be 3D printed, so, as you may have guessed by now, 3D shapes are of no issue or concern to produce for 3D printing, be it rail, sea or air or what ever :thumbs: The only hurdle is time and enthusiasm, 11 years in 3D graphics kinda wears you out LOL.

I have dabbled since with some German electric loco cabs but nothing printed yet, I keep toying with a class 26 - 40 - 45 or 55 cab and etched sides/roof, but always find an excuse not too.

End of gratuitous trumpet blowing and apologies for the seriously off topic diversion, I can remove it if people wish.

But if you ever find decent drawings of 03/04 wheels I'd whip a 3D model up for you to send off for printing if you so decided or needed.
 

adrian

Flying Squad
Largest and most complex model (WIP) and largest into the simulator at that date. MS sims are limited to the maximum number of parts you can upload, according to the SDK it's 70'000, but with care and knowing how to bend the compiler, you can get 130'000 in, as far as I'm aware ( four years ago), this had never been beaten, you could only get away with this because your at sea and the sim doesn't need to draw any other scenery like trees, houses etc, other wise your PC slows to a crawling slide show, there are other tricks like LOD shapes and clever texture mapping that all help.
Not quite like the sim I get to use at work!! They have half a dozen PCs on a scramnet interface, each PC having a dedicated role, visuals, models, cockpit, hud, FCS etc. because latency is a killer to be avoided at all costs. Anyway they had an aircraft carrier model for one project - when we went in for our project to look at target tracking and inflight refuelling they forgot to swap the target from the aircraft carrier to the VC10 tanker. So I jump in to test the FCS and end up trying to formate on an aircraft carrier at 300kts 10Kft above the lake district!! If you've seen the film Avengers Assemble - wasn't that different to their aircraft carrier, without the ducted fans on the side.

End of gratuitous trumpet blowing and apologies for the seriously off topic diversion, I can remove it if people wish.

Not at all, it's all grist to the mill as far as I'm concerned, making models in what ever form is interesting.
 
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SteveO

Guest
Lovely models! I have a thing for rotor wings. I have a plan one day to build an RC Westland Scout, or even a static one would do. Love them! I've also got a liking for twin boom aircraft, like the P38 and the Venom/Vampire.
 

alcazar

Guest
Just to go back to locos for a minute, I see what you are saying Mick, but how do you then explain the fact that several manufacturers seem to make the SAME kit, at the SAME level, and they seem to be able to sell their stuff OK?
 
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