A first kit-build: 3500 Gallon Churchward Tender - 4mm Scale.

jonte

Western Thunderer
Filling gaps is easy, more solder.

I think your problem with the tank top to coal spaces sides and front joint is not enough flux, if you want solder to run 'through' a joint then you need to flux both sides....rather liberally.

In your case I think there is a tank top overlay that goes all over that area so you may not need to flood fill and make smooth.

Another trick is to solder inside with a high temp solder, say 224°C and then solder on the other side you want to fill with 145 or 100°C, just blob it on and then dress back. Use a manky old rough file first as solder really clogs up fine files, then work your way down through smoother files and then sand paper etc.

If the are is a visible area and you can't get in there with big files and such then use some solder wick,

View attachment 125584
liberally soak the area in flux, place the wick on the blob of solder and place a hot iron on top of that, once the wick is hot enough it'll whip up any solder on the surface. I then tend to use the iron as a mop with a towel on the end kind of effect and shove the wick around the area to mop any solder.

Remove the iron and wick together or else the wick will stick to your model :p

Done correctly you'll be left with a thin smear or witness stain of solder, which can easily be removed with a fibre brush.

A word of caution, the wick is 'very' good at conducting heat, you will get your second burnt finger very quickly if you hold onto it for too long ;) In time you'll find the best way to hold, adapt and use the wick, everyone has different techniques.

Many thanks for your comprehensive and helpful response once again, Mick. There really is a lot to this kit-building lark ;)

You’re dead right about the tank overlay which I’m hoping will hide a multitude of sins. Incidentally, thought about sweating it on but on second thoughts will just solder round the edges and around the gaps in the tank former top where I removed the riveted brackets, which secure the central section of the overlay.

Great idea about fluxing both sides and the variety of solders sounds a great dodge. Will try the former first :thumbs:

Really pleased to read about usage of the ‘wick’ as I’ve always wondered how it works. Will deffo order some, and try and raise my pain threshold in the meantime.

Really appreciate your advice, Mick.

Cheers

Jonte
 

jonte

Western Thunderer
Hi Jonte

I've been following your build and you're making good steady progress.
One tip for solder wick, to avoid burnt fingers, is to hold a length in a pair of forceps as below. They're useful for many other things too!

Mosquito Forceps Hemostatic Clamp Tweezers Artery Surgical Straight AP027 13cm | eBay

Regards, Deano.

Hi Deano and welcome.

Thanks for the tip and the vote of confidence. Apologies for the waffle. It needs editing.

Forceps ordered :thumbs:

Jonte

Edit to say that the vendor is currently on vacation. Will order on their return. Jonte
 

Mike Garwood

Western Thunderer
Jonte

I thought that Carrs Red label flux was for white metal soldering and Carrs Green label was for 145? I would definatly endorse the use of the O guage stuff, excellent. I have 4 different fluxes on my bench at any one time. Each has there own use.
The build looks good.

Stay safe

Mike
 

Phil O

Western Thunderer
Another useful bit of kit for holding stuff is a modified wooden clothes peg or two.

Modelling pegs.jpg

Also provided the gap is not too large you can also use the othe end, see the singe marks on the left peg. I also have ceramic tipped tweezers as used by the E cigarette brigade.
 

jonte

Western Thunderer
Jonte

I thought that Carrs Red label flux was for white metal soldering and Carrs Green label was for 145? I would definatly endorse the use of the O guage stuff, excellent. I have 4 different fluxes on my bench at any one time. Each has there own use.
The build looks good.

Stay safe

Mike

Hi Mike and thanks for your approval :thumbs:

You could be right about the flux having used the green in the past. For some reason, I was offered the red instead which I was led to believe is appropriate for a range of metals including white metal and brass.

Honest answer, Mike, is that I’m not too sure but will try and order the green if there’s no improvement.

Many thanks for your input and wishing you the best of health.

Jonte
 

jonte

Western Thunderer
Another useful bit of kit for holding stuff is a modified wooden clothes peg or two.

View attachment 125607

Also provided the gap is not too large you can also use the othe end, see the singe marks on the left peg. I also have ceramic tipped tweezers as used by the E cigarette brigade.

Ah yes - the good ol’ reliable clothes peg ;)

I’ve been holding mine in abeyance but they’re about to be called into action with soldering the overlay to the tank top former :)

I bought several types of tweezers with a view to the build - one or two distinctly for some silver soldering I’d like to try eventually - but I don’t think they’re ceramic tipped. Simply amazing the equipment that’s available these days.

Thanks for dropping in, Phil, and for sharing your tip.

Best wishes,

Jonte
 

jonte

Western Thunderer
News of yet more glacial progress, fellow Westerners, as today saw me finally fix the overlay to the tank former top.
Now this probably shouldn’t have taken all day, but unfortunately, it did.

What I was contemplating, and in hindsight what I shoulda done, was to sweat the two together. But in my defence, I really wasn’t sure how the overlay would fare under the duress of all the heat required, so I bottled it and opted to solder round the edges. Which takes forever. Especially when you can’t just run a single seam down each edge as there are notches that must be kept clear for such additions as rear coalplates, so it was on with a series of tacks, trying to be as neat as possible without flooding all those beautiful little rivets with metal glue. Yes they can be dealt with as advised by @mickoo with wick, but with a month or so to be delivered on a slow boat from China.......

I started by cleaning both parts as thoroughly as possible with a glass fibre brush:

68AE4867-AB53-4ABC-BD42-AC949D0E12FF.jpeg

Now, as I mentioned to @Phil O in response to his recent post kindly advising the use of wooden clothes pegs for the task at hand, I had a stash of these all ready and waiting in a cupboard beneath the kitchen sink. As is usually the case with items not stashed away in a secure store, they’d walked, and after a fruitless search of adjacent kitchen cupboard, garage and airing cupboard I sort of gave up the ghost and opted for the plazzy variety languishing in the tin my wife leaves outside in the garden. Funnily enough, when dried after an overnight soaking, they dealt with the job quite adequately. Incidentally, you will notice a handful of locking tweezers which I’d bought specifically for this sort of thing, but after recent issues with other metal implements acting as unwanted heat sinks, I decided to let them lie.

The pegs in action:

AECF5AD9-9B8F-475D-A972-027B910F0FC3.jpeg

In an effort to make the process of soldering round the edges a little easier, I decided to turn the piece over and fix the overlay via the gaps left by the removal of the coal plate brackets:

DD20BA02-5C68-44D4-B35C-B7F7833EB576.jpeg BDC4073B-3561-4A78-9600-57CE8CA71223.jpeg

A shoe box lid provides the right angle of attack and the good ol’ metal bars showing yet another ideal use a stop.

Another chance also to view the front bits that were folded round the top and fixed. Yuk! Next time, I would remove both of these pieces, fold them off the job and then fix them separately. Mick advised me that the best filler for any gaps in these brass kits is ‘more solder’ although IMHO, it would help immensely if I could avoid a gap in the first place. This is not a criticism of the kit itself which is measured to perfection; I just found it difficult to form in one piece as designed: my failing not the kit which would prove straightforward in the hands of a competent builder.

I turned the kit over to discover no cockling or distortion present. It would have indeed stood the rigours of ‘sweating’. Next time. I started soldering it on using that lolly ice stick again (this would not only hold down the overlay whilst being soldered but would also protect the rivets from excess solder). Then I came to my senses and realised that turning turtle would do the same thing. Pretty obvious really. For the intelligenza.

View attachment 125709 View attachment 125710

Talking of shell-like creatures, my dear friend Olive was allowed a restricted return to the garden following a concentrated course of antiseptic cream and antibiotics:872AE09C-390A-425F-8AF0-3EB4DB68B7AB.jpeg

The rest of this post has gone down as an ‘Edit’ following an accidental operation of the ‘Reply’ button due to the page updating very slowly. I’ve also experienced instances of the site crashing whilst trying to complete. I wonder if anybody else has experienced such difficulties- or perhaps is just yours truly the slow-coach?

87BE2C79-0DCC-4043-BA02-922C6B0C72AD.jpeg 4D9EF825-5077-40A0-8B8A-7D1427C564EE.jpeg

The results:

73261ED7-B76A-4EFB-8CAA-F0BEEFF42F6D.jpeg 07CF52D4-CF7F-4516-9735-9A9F05E8017F.jpeg A9266D9E-E936-4E9D-A270-409546ABB64F.jpeg 6029F4F2-D082-427F-A573-C8088125C512.jpeg E5DFC136-C1D2-4FB9-85DF-0B02BFB1AD1A.jpeg

Until the wick arrives, I’ve tried to draw the excess solder away from the rivets which should also make it more accessible for the wick.

I really was careful - although it doesn’t show - with solder or amount of solder to be exact.

To that end, I broke out my new 1mm but replacement for the smaller CS model Antex. Problem was, the bit wouldn’t come off. As I didn’t fancy breaking the element, I just had to continue with the 2mm already attached. The tiniest amounts of solder were used to seal the joint and fill the gap where required using a method advised by @oldravendale, but the task was made more difficult by the iron being too light for the job (the surface of the solder resembled the shell of fruit of a horse chestnut tree!). So, back out came the big guy requiring real dexterity by yours truly with the solder to prevent a massive lump of the stuff accidentally attaching itself to the face of the bit.

So there we are, Westerners, not an awful lot to show and not the neatest of job’s, but we continue to live n learn.

Chow for now.

Jonte
 
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jonte

Western Thunderer
Having secured the overlay to a degree, fellow Westerners (I shall refrain from use of the word ‘satisfactorily), the next stage was to prepare the footplate for attaching to the tank former via a series of slots and matching tabs respectively.

Now this being a very good kit - and all things be eq....the same - the tabs should drop into the slots, solder, file away the excess and move on. But.... . To be fair, the instructions clearly state that the slots will require opening with a needle file so I made a start the evening before with an hour or two to spare, removing the burr with a small file to leave a nice even surface both sides. A token assembly revealed, disappointingly, that one side would require further dressing with the needle file if the tank former was going to slot into place, so that’s where the day began.

Well it would have done, but after setting up, I remembered that I’d forgotten to drill the holes in the overlay from underneath, using predrilled holes in the tank former as a guide. It would have been a quick job just drilling ‘em out with a suitable bit, but as this kit admirably caters for most incarnations throughout its long history, there was homework to be done firstto determine which of the holes to drill. I also needed to familiarise with the bits-in-the-small-sealed-plastic-bag that contained myriad components, some of which I could barely make out, as well as cross checking them with the comprehensive parts list so I knew what it was the instructions were referring to in the equally comprehensive diagrams. So I popped into the...aherm....’office’, taking all and sundry with me including instructions, volume for reference and bag o’ bitz, whereupon I noticed a shred of paper with some writing on it....very small letters in fact....enclosed with the bits in the bag. With my ever handy electron microscope, I successfully deciphered: ‘this stuff’s for the later version, Jonte. You’ll require the earlier springs and toolboxes if you’re gonna get it right, so pop ‘em back to us in the post and we’ll exchange them for the right ones........’

I should have noticed this before - my fault- but then there are so many notes and bits that accompany this rather fine kit that the newcomer is easily overwhelmed. Anyway, the bits are in the post and the manufacturer made a prompt reply with a promise to sort at the end of the week.

Homework done, I returned to the bench and drilled appropriately using a small bit, on the basis that it’s easier to open out a hole than fill it.

Then I finished opening out the final side of slots in the footplate.

Now it states in the instructions that the footplate should be flat. It had been, but regrettably, all the poking and filing had started to alter its shape to not flat. So out came the heavy bars which I’d used before for the task, against the granite worktops. But I’d forgotten about the two tabs that were sticking up proudly between which the front forks of the tank former will be soldered. Nothing for it but to flatten them again and bend them back WITHOUT snapping them. Thankfully I recovered them and then ran a bead down each fold ....before I forgot:

9FF898BE-A84D-4A4D-9711-F2FD81C7D6C6.jpeg

Anyway, it all came off in the end; thankfully I’m ready for the next stage which involves sweating the sides and end onto the tank former.

I’ll leave you with a piccie of it just placed for now:

544DB854-98DD-4301-B567-20EF9EE67977.jpeg

Jonte
 

Phil O

Western Thunderer
Jonte, it seems that your modelling is like mine two paces backwards and one forward, in the search for perfection.
 

jonte

Western Thunderer
Today was the day I’d been dreading, fellow Westerners, since addressing the flares.

I’d sworn by close of play - about half an hour ago in fact - I’d have sweated on those sides and ends. But first, as usual, there was other stuff to deal with first.

Reading ahead (again) it mentioned filing flat any tabs proud of the footplate - i e the tabs of the tank former. But by that time, sides, end, coal plates and sundry other delicate items would be in mortal danger of my hamfists, so now seemed as good a time as any to do it while there was nothing to get swiped or crushed - again.

I also wanted to seat this fully home (the solder bead to reinforce the tab against which it was sitting, was preventing it from bedding, so I reckoned a hot iron, loads of flux and me pushing down would cure it:

1B4BCAB2-1231-4A37-98AA-FBDC2DB0DA45.jpeg

Using two different sized files removed the excess tabs and rendered the footplate as flat as it was possible for me to make:

50FEF373-0101-40BE-85DF-A0A8244C7119.jpeg BC38F091-2607-42A7-838B-0A112F4E15DA.jpeg

I also wanted to remove the solder that had leaked through each tab and onto the front of the footplate which I thought might prevent the sides and end from sitting flat. This was a waste of time as it turned out but I did it anyway.

Before:

594A1F1C-8C72-4511-A24F-BB797A74222C.jpeg

After:

ECDCAE0C-C787-42B5-A0BB-8A86E99014D7.jpeg

Not wanting to tackle the process of opening up the tabs for the valence plates later on whilst everything else was in place, I thought I’d get that done as well as it’s a bit of a chore. To add to my misery, one or two had become clogged with solder during soldering the tabs onto the footplate, so out came drills of various sizes until I could manage to get the needle file in again (tabs and slots are a great idea but I do wish the manufacturer had created the slots a little longer and wider than the tabs . Of course, to ensure this was right, I thought I’d liberate the valences from the fret to test all was well:

E1BA306B-1CD4-4478-A1C5-6CA5D4832ECD.jpeg

Unfortunately, I’d opened out the slots too far on one side so they don’t stand vertically, but I’ll cross that bridge....

Good, now I could carry on with the build. This involved fixing the coal chute to the footplate and soldering it along the sides. This gave me the opportunity to ‘fill’ that annoying gap I’d left on one side:

50906FFA-372E-4E92-87D3-39C2E226CA9C.jpeg 50DE7CC2-4FB1-44EA-813E-F10219C3413C.jpeg

Not the best of jobs but I tried my best.

Now, down to business. Sweating. And preparing the parts to be sweated :(

First, I cleaned up the frames of the tank former to which the tender sides are attached with the glass fibre brush, and set about ‘tinning’ them. Then I did the same with the insides of the wrapper ensuring that I didn’t damage the flares that had been rendered fragile by the annealing process. Then I bottled out and went for something to eat.

3EAF6450-8426-4BF4-AB70-E45D704B43A5.jpeg CB86888C-4C87-4AB3-83B9-4934278FB1EE.jpeg

On my return I but the bullet and followed the instructions using plenty of heat and flux. And my lolly ice/iced lolly stick.

As usual, I had a load of ideas to best go about this. I had hoped to go in from underneath and place the iron on the inside of the frames, but it was difficult to get either the fibreglass brush or iron in, so I just had to do it on the outside. This however wasn’t the issue it would have been now that I know I can remove it - eventually. It also meant that I could keep better control of the wrapper as I went along as it was difficult to manipulate - or I should say, made more difficult by the shape of the wrapper I had presented - the practice piece was neater by comparison and true.

Only, it didn’t go to plan. Not all the way round anyway. One side and the rear were fine, but unfortunately, the other side had started to run out, and with all the sizzling, smoke and pressure, it couldn’t be persuaded to adjust.

Answers on a postcard please, fellow Westerners, as to the best way to fill the gap which increases towards the front :(

I respectfully submit the results for your perusal:

3AA2CDB4-7FD5-482F-A5DD-571E565BC4CF.jpeg 89B648EB-E07C-4726-83BE-362B89148455.jpeg 54F446D5-8E41-4497-BA53-BE8F8E6AEE08.jpeg 218A7379-0339-4529-8734-CDD2B2F0BF00.jpeg 5C0A6915-1E36-4E46-92D2-DE8AD71AEA61.jpeg

Thanks for looking.

Jonte
 
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Overseer

Western Thunderer
This is frustrating, if I were closer I would offer to come over and show you how I would do it. But from a distance, you need more heat more quickly for brass. I use a Weller W60D soldering iron with a 430 degree tip, Carrs Green flux and 60/40 tin/lead (~188 degree) solder for brass kits. Sometimes more heat is needed so I have a 40w Weller with 1/4 inch tip, although only 40w it heats up hotter and the big tip transfers more heat more quickly, but too much for most thin brass. I also have a micro torch for when even more heat is needed.

Green label flux is much better to use on brass than red label, keep the red label for soldering whitemetal. You don't need a lot of flux, just apply enough to cover the area you want to solder with a thin layer. Apply more as you go if you need to. I use a toothpick / cocktail stick to apply flux and a bottle lasts a long time.

I carry the solder to the joint on the tip of the iron. Using a fine wire solder makes it easy to pick up small amounts of solder on the tip. I tend to use resin cored electronics solder as it is kinder to the tip but the resin burns off before the solder reaches the brass so it is not acting as a flux in this case. Only apply solder where you want to make a joint, keep it off surfaces that aren't being joined.

I have a range of solders but tend to use only one nearly all the time. I find with 60/40 solder I can add details quite close to previous joints without it all falling apart - enough heat quickly. I don't like mixing solders as the alloys formed are usually much weaker than the original alloys, and can crystallise.

More practice is good. Relax and observe how the solder flows with the iron in different locations.
 

jonte

Western Thunderer
This is frustrating, if I were closer I would offer to come over and show you how I would do it. But from a distance, you need more heat more quickly for brass. I use a Weller W60D soldering iron with a 430 degree tip, Carrs Green flux and 60/40 tin/lead (~188 degree) solder for brass kits. Sometimes more heat is needed so I have a 40w Weller with 1/4 inch tip, although only 40w it heats up hotter and the big tip transfers more heat more quickly, but too much for most thin brass. I also have a micro torch for when even more heat is needed.

Green label flux is much better to use on brass than red label, keep the red label for soldering whitemetal. You don't need a lot of flux, just apply enough to cover the area you want to solder with a thin layer. Apply more as you go if you need to. I use a toothpick / cocktail stick to apply flux and a bottle lasts a long time.

I carry the solder to the joint on the tip of the iron. Using a fine wire solder makes it easy to pick up small amounts of solder on the tip. I tend to use resin cored electronics solder as it is kinder to the tip but the resin burns off before the solder reaches the brass so it is not acting as a flux in this case. Only apply solder where you want to make a joint, keep it off surfaces that aren't being joined.

I have a range of solders but tend to use only one nearly all the time. I find with 60/40 solder I can add details quite close to previous joints without it all falling apart - enough heat quickly. I don't like mixing solders as the alloys formed are usually much weaker than the original alloys, and can crystallise.

More practice is good. Relax and observe how the solder flows with the iron in different locations.


Thank you, Overseer, for kindly sharing your broad knowledge on the subject and for offering to lend a helping hand. I’m most grateful.

Your inventory re the types of iron to use is extremely helpful as a lot of literature on this topic isn’t so specific.

My erroneous use of ‘Red’ has been highlighted before -despite the claim by the manufacturer that it is indeed suitable for brass - so I think the time has come to return to ‘Green’.

In light of what you’ve written, Overseer, especially with regards to ‘heat’, I think I shall return to the offending side and try one last attempt to seat it using this (which I hope will cure it rather than kill it):

F014D6C3-F502-4734-A89E-BAEFA7656DEA.jpeg

I doubt I shall relax, but I take your point.

Kind regards

Jonte
 

simond

Western Thunderer
I concur entirely with the bit size comments that Fraser has made. Wattage is less important than the heat flow, and the bit is a reservoir of heat that can transfer quickly to the model.

I’ve never been keen on the Carr’s fluxes, but have obtained good results with citric acid, which you can buy at home brew shops (including Wilko) or online. I mix a saturated solution, and then add some isopropyl alcohol (recommendations vary from “a few drops“ to “about half again”). It works well on brass, and leaves a sticky, but apparently non-corroding, residue that washes off easily with hot water.

hth
Simon
 

jonte

Western Thunderer
I concur entirely with the bit size comments that Fraser has made. Wattage is less important than the heat flow, and the bit is a reservoir of heat that can transfer quickly to the model.

I’ve never been keen on the Carr’s fluxes, but have obtained good results with citric acid, which you can buy at home brew shops (including Wilko) or online. I mix a saturated solution, and then add some isopropyl alcohol (recommendations vary from “a few drops“ to “about half again”). It works well on brass, and leaves a sticky, but apparently non-corroding, residue that washes off easily with hot water.

hth
Simon

I recall you’ve made mention of Citric Acid in several posts, so thank you for the full recipe:)

May I ask where you find IPA?
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Jonte,
IPA is a key ingredient in sanitisers so its proving tricky to get hold of at the moment. I used to buy mine in 1l cans from electronics equipment suppliers such as Farnell, RS, CPC, etc. It's used for cleaning circuit boards. These days I buy in 5l or more from chemicals suppliers - but that's mainly used for cleaning records!

Fraser,
I agree with you, it is frustrating not being able to be hands on. When I used to do modelling demonstrations at shows I reckoned I could get someone through to reliably forming and joining a few bits in around half an hour because you could really quickly pick up on things. I think Jonte is in good hands in this thread though; lots of people looking in.

Jonte,
I think you've got some great advice in this thread so I won't try and cloud the issue further. But when you find those wooden clothes pegs, there is a 5-second trick that makes them easier to use:

20200617_095642.jpg

Steph
 
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