A Variation on a Theme

Discussion in 'G3' started by Jon Nazareth, 13 August 2020.

  1. AJC

    AJC Western Thunderer

    And that's because they didn't bother - think of all the branches without either a turntable or a triangle for a start (Abbotsbury, Bridport, Chard, Yatton-Clevedon, etc.) where that was impossible. We modellers just think one way round looks 'right'.

    In the case of these early examples, where wagon turntables proliferated, they may have done, but I doubt it.

    GrahameH, mswjr, simond and 1 other person like this.
  2. simond

    simond Western Thunderer

    This seems sensible, pragmatic & believable, and the lack of easy turning arrangements seems to me to be a clincher.

    I could go through all my picture books and count the photos, but honestly, the mojo to do so is entirely lacking. I guess that just one photo of a toad each way round would prove the point.

    oldravendale, AJC and LarryG like this.
  3. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Well...... If I'd thought to look at my collection of photos I'd have found quite a few examples of Toads "wrong way round" on working freight trains. That answers the problem for sure.

    mswjr, simond and AJC like this.
  4. AJC

    AJC Western Thunderer

    I have one Toad myself and it's *amazing* how many times it gets marshalled the other way round than the lamps suggest because I deliberately put them on the 'wrong' way (even by me!). None of this helps Jon with his question, however.

  5. Spitfire2865

    Spitfire2865 Western Thunderer

    Not too sure about GWR, but the LNWR seemed to have an early fascination with wagon turntables since their early goods vans were one sided and they built many goods yards with banks of TTs for a lot of manual shunting.
    Obviously that only matters in yards, but it probably wouldnt be too difficult if facilities were available to turn the break to the guards prefered direction.
    AJC likes this.
  6. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    Thank you for your comments, chaps. I never really gave it that much thought re the lack of turntables so, they could have ran either way, I suppose. As you can see from the pictures, I've turned it around and now looks as if it's ready to dash off down the track.


    IMG_4367.JPG IMG_4368.JPG
  7. Mike W

    Mike W Western Thunderer

    Not wishing to prolong this topic, break vans had windows in both ends. If they were regularly turned they probably wouldn't have needed them all, especially as the Guard could always look over the side. In most LNWR break vans the windows at the varanda end were higher because he was standing up, and lower at the other end because he was sitting down. I assume other railways were similar. Though how Chairman Moon allowed his men to sit down on the job is beyond me!
  8. John D

    John D Western Thunderer

    Ah! Now Mike......you seem not to have read Peter Braine's book 'The Railway Moon' , it portrays the man in a totally different light to the percieved image..... recommended though there's a lot of stuff in it about share dividends...yawn!

    Mike W likes this.
  9. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    P.S. Does anyone have a drawing or even a picture of an early brake van side lamp? It would be interesting to know what they looked like and, if not too difficult, it may be worth having a go at making a pair.

  10. mswjr

    mswjr Western Thunderer

    These are the only ones i can find, They are early ,but not sure how early, Very hard to find in your period. 76.jpg img-80d4f65919ebce866c4c54195d0c14fd.jpg
  11. michael mott

    michael mott Western Thunderer

    I'm not THAT old but I remember seeing ones like the one on the left when I was a kid the road works people used some like it. The magnifying lens was a great thing to get hold of for a 10 year old.

  12. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    Thank you for the pictures. The red one looks 'different', I'll print off the pictures of them both and give it some serious thought.

    mswjr likes this.
  13. Peter Insole

    Peter Insole Western Thunderer

    Beware! The red lamp on the right is an LER/London Transport tail lamp!

    stand a0dbbe0548dd901a57238ca06a72a6f09b.jpg

    (Image published elsewhere and shown for illustrative purposes only.)

    oldravendale likes this.
  14. mswjr

    mswjr Western Thunderer

    No i do not think it is, The information i have is, The one on the right is Probably a industrial lamp made by sanderson &co, The one on the left is Probably Midland Rly tail lamp patent no 3192, These are from an auction house selling lamps, They say Probably as early lamps are hard to identify .
  15. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Well, whether it is or not that's a stunning photo.

  16. Peter Insole

    Peter Insole Western Thunderer

    Ahaa! I've just found the auction site and enlarged their image...

    The auctioneers were talking utter twaddle!!

    It is indeed an LER lamp! The number on the plate is the manufacturing date of 1931, and that ties in perfectly with the clearly visible stamping of "UD" - which was a common branding of the "UndergrounD" up until 1933, whereupon, lamps were then fully marked up as "LPTB"

    I had a rusty LPTB lamp, complete with copper reservoir, and have since kept a nice "LT" branded one (post 1948) that has the later, slightly enlarged ruby glass lens. The older tank (and LTE burner) was of an identical pattern to the latter, so it was salvaged in order to create a complete and functioning lamp.

    Finding any images of railway lamps, especially of the humble (non loco) variety from the mid 1800's period is a bit of a problem isn't it?! The only thing that I could find was a contemporary line drawing that showed some oddly positioned side lamps. The interesting point though, is that they were of a design that was (perhaps unsurprisingly?) influenced by the type usually used on horse drawn carriages!

    Why wouldn't those early railway companies have simply turned to well established contractors that were already producing oil lamps in great quantities anyway?

    Incidentally, we usually use the term "oil lamp" incorrectly. Early lamps usually burned a heavy type, such as "Colza", Rape Seed or even Sunflower oil, whereas the railway lamps that we are more familiar with should perhaps really be referred to as "spirit lamps"? Many Pre-grouping ones are found specifically plated or stamped for "Kerosene" or "Petroleum", though no such distinction was made on any later examples - presumably after that American stuff called "Paraffin" really caught on over here?!

  17. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    Oh well, back to the drawing board.

  18. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    I like the idea of them using carriage lamps, makes sense.

    Peter Insole likes this.
  19. Peter Insole

    Peter Insole Western Thunderer

    Jon. I have been looking for something that might be suitable for you, but this is the best that I have managed to find so far:

    First though, here are those odd side lamps on an L&B carriage...

    lamp landbCoach-1st-mail.jpg

    You will see that they appear to be squared, with the suggestion that they are clear glass to the outside.

    Significantly, they also have conical reservoirs-cum-stands as well as distinctive, and classic "double mushroom" shaped chimney tops!

    Here are a couple of cropped images showing a pair of interesting lamps:

    lamp crrs-l1600.jpg lamp carrias-l1600.jpg

    Although the proportions are rather different than those on the drawing, and they are also minus their burners and reservoirs, they do at least seem to give something of the flavour and hopefully provide some potential features that you might like to use?


    *Usual disclaimers for the use of images published elsewhere.
  20. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    That's a nice pair of lamps. Are they yours?
    From looking at them, it would appear that a red lens shows forward and back and a large clear to the outside. I would assume that the small red lens would show forward.
    If theses are yours, could you measure the 'square' of one side, please?