7mm B17 Arsenal - a livery question, probably resolved

[Dog Star]

There is a DJH kit for this model and that big box is edging its way towards the New Top Shed for building. A rather nice photo of this loco, in our desired period, can be found in Yeadon's Register of LNER Locomotives, volume 5 (Irwell Press / Booklaw, 2001, pg. 66).

What livery is carried by Arsenal in this image?

So what have I deduced from Yeadon and "The Book of the B17s" (Irwell Press)? Yeadon and "Book of.." agree generally in regard to dates, places and repairs, there are some differences and a couple of worthy of note (later) - unless stated otherwise the information presented here is from Yeadon. The loco was allocated to March from 1942 to 1949 and then to Stratford from 1949 to 1956... the photo is written "Stratford" on the buffer plank so the caption date of April 1949 agrees with the shed allocation. The loco received a General (classified) repair at Stratford in 1947 and may have been painted at that time - if this is the case then the engine would have been released to traffic in unlined black, either as painted during WW2 or painted during the general repair (Yeadon, pg.8). Arsenal's next repair was Darlington in February-April 1949... just before the engine was photographed on 19th April (Yeadon, pg.66) so this photo depicts a loco fairly fresh from overhaul. Could Arsenal have retained the black paint job from the previous repair? I think not given the light colour of the paint on the side of the tender.

So what does Yeadon say about the livery used for the B17 in the early years of nationalisation? The first couple of B17s that were painted after 1/1/1948 were given a "very light green" paint job (Yeadon, pg.8), I doubt that the Arsenal photo shows that livery. Late in 1948 Darlington assumed responsibility for B17 maintenance and painted some B17s in LNER green with black / white lining (Yeadon, pg.8) - Yeadon lists ten engines which received this livery and that list does not include Arsenal. From August 1949 Darlington commenced painting B17s in the Brunswick green livery (Yeadon, pg.8)... but this is several months after Arsenal returned to traffic from its first overhaul at Darlington (3rd April 1949) so one may conclude that the engine in the photo is not painted in Brunswick green.

My reading of the data in the books referenced above is that Arsenal was in unlined black when the engine entered Darlington works in February 1949... and neither book gives information on what colour Darlington used from late 1948 until summer 1949 other than the ten engines which received a green livery (and that list does not include Arsenal).

What is your take on the livery carried by Arsenal in the April 1949 photo as shown in Yeardon ( reference above)?

thanks for reading, Graham

 

[Eastsidepilot]

With out seeing the photo in the book it's hard to comment.
It was decided, by the LNER, in September '46 to paint loco's in 'Grass Green' which was the pre-war colour lined with black and white, so if she went in to Stratford for a general during '47 she may well of got this livery then , 'Brunswick' later in BR days.



Col

 

[Dog Star]

Colin,

I read Yeadon as saying that Stratford painted B17s in unlined black after WW2 and before nationalisation, so not likely to be green (unless I am mis-reading what Yeadon says...).

regards, Graham

 

[LarryG]

It would be handy to see that photo. Late in 1948, B17's that had hitherto been overhauled at Stratford works became Darlington's responsibility and for about 6 months the latter works used LNER green (black cylinders) with normal black & white lining and lettered full 'British Railways' and orthodox Gil Sans numbers. Nameplate colours restored too.

BR green was adopted in August 1949 with standard style insignia (except 61613 which had no Tender insignia), so all would receive this livery eventually.

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Graham,
Unfortunately I don't have the B17 Yeadon's to hand so if you can scan the photo and post it I may be able to give my take on it.

Col.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Graham
I have all the references you mention as well as RCTS. According to them without being specific you would read that 48 would have been black until it's overhaul at Darlington in early 1949, however Irwell's book says that the majority of B17s were repainted into LNER green asap after the war. Having looked at the picture in Yeadon's I would completely agree with Larry.
Martin

 

[Dog Star]

Larry, Martin... are you saying that Yeadon ought to have included Arsenal in the list of engines which were painted green before Brunswick green became the norm?

 

[LarryG]

Larry, Martin... are you saying that Yeadon ought to have included Arsenal in the list of engines which were painted green before Brunswick green became the norm?

I wish I could see the photo. Unless it is very poor or the loco incredibly dirty, one should easily be able to differentiate the different livery styles even on non-panchromatic emulsion. It's a hard-ask when we have no photo.

Remember I said that locos that hitherto had been the responsibility of Stratford Works became Darlington's responsibility. No mention of locos that may have been shopped elsewhere, say Gorton.

 

[Martin Shaw]

I've had another look at Yeadon. His listing of engines painted LNER green at Stratford works is probably correct. Up to 6/2/49 1648 was a March engine and it had a works visit for a general at Stratford from 26/1-14/5/47, when if Yeadon is correct it would have been painted unlined black . As Larry has said Darlington became responsible for B17 overhauls in late 1948 and 1648 allocated to Stratford shed on 6/2/49 enterered Darlo for a general on 15/2-3/4/49 immediately after which, 16 days in traffic, the photo in Yeadon was taken, which well pre dated the policy decision in August 49 to paint some passenger classes in lined Brunswick green. Darlington turned out some B17s in LNER green in the period late 48 to Aug49 which Yeadon lists, 11,22,27,28,34,35,38,41,46,59.

It is possible that two, possibly three, scenarios are likely. Assuming the engine was painted black in 1947 it is a possibility that the paint condition was such that it didn't need repainting in 1949 which would make it black in the Yeadon photo. This seems unlikely to me as the complete dismantling of a loco makes a repaint almost mandatory and paint during the war and immediately after was pretty poor quality. It was repainted in spring 1949 in LNER green and that fact has not been recorded anwhere and Yeadon missed it, which seems the most likely, in my view the photo supports this. It was actually painted in BR green and the sunlight angle in the photo has lightened the chromatic response so confusing me, entirely a consideration but I don't think so, none of the other evidence supports this. One pointer possibly is that the 6s in the smokebox number plate are Gill Sans rather than curly, does that have any bearing? RCTS records it as being renumbered to 61648 in 4/49 so presumably at its works visit.
Entirely my view but with solid support I would suggest.
Martin

 

[Dog Star]

As a step towards resolving the question as given my first post of this topic I have looked at the overhaul dates for those engines which Darlington painted in LNER Apple Green in the period between assuming responsibility for B17 maintenance and adopting the Brunswick Green livery (August 1949, Yeadon, pg.8). Yeadon gives a list of engines so painted which Martin details above - 11,22,27,28,34,35,38,41,46,59 - and the corresponding repair dates are as below (Yeadon).

61611 - general, 19/1 - 9/4/49
61622
61627 - general, 11/8 - 5/12/48
61628 - general, 15/8 - 6/12/48
light casual 5/4 - 8/5/49
61634 - light casual 24/2 - 28/3/49
61635 - general, 19/12/48 - 30/1/49
non-classified, 3/2 - 6/2/49
61638 - general, 9/9 - 8/12/48
61641 - general, 12/12/48 - 19/2/49
61646 - general, 26/9 - 8/12/48
light casual, 11/3 - 4/5/49
61659 - light, 19/1 - 19/2/49
general, 6/5 - 14/7/49

Engine 61622 had a general repair at Stratford in 1948 and another general repair at Gorton in 1950 (Yeadon, pg.30 and Book of B17s pg.90, neither book shows any repair at Darlington in 1948 or 1949). If the repair data is correct then one may infer that this engine was not painted green by Darlington circa 1948-9 as stated by Yeadon.

Engine 61634 had a general repair at Stratford in 1948 and a general repair at Doncaster in 1950 with a light casual repair in early 1949... for the light repair, Yeadon gives the engine as at Darlington whilst Book of B17s gives the engine at Stratford. Apart from the inconsistency as to where 61634 received its light repair, I suggest that the light repair was not likely to have included a full repaint from black (Stratford 1948) to green (Darlington 1949).

Returning to 61648, Arsenal, this engine received a general repair at Darlington between 19/2/49 and 3/4/1949. Taking the date that engines were "off-works", from a general repair, as the closest date to when an engine was painted... and comparing the "off works" date for Arsenal to the engines listed above... engines 61611 and 61659 were "off works" after Arsenal. The Book of the B17s has a photo of 61611 dated 3rd September 1949 with "British Railways" on the tender (pg.69) - this is likely to be the "LNER" green livery applied in the most recent Darlington repair because Darlington did not start applying the British Railways emblem until circa 9/1949 (Yeadon, pg.8).

Finally, the photo of 61628 (Yeadon, pg.44) shows how Darlington painted engines in "LNER" green after nationalisation... the caption states "Darlington then continued the LNER green until 61602 was out on 11/6/1949 and 61659 (...) on 14/7/1949".

Conclusions - (1) the information above supports a view that Arsenal received "LNER" green when given a general repair at Darlington in the spring of 1949; (2) the caption to the photo of 61628 (Yeadon pg.44) suggests that the inclusion of engine 61622 in the list of engines painted "LNER" green by Darlington is a typo and that the list ought to include 61602 rather than 61622.

regards, Graham

 

[Eastsidepilot]

So we assume she was painted green

Col.