BUSES ~ Model and prototype...

Discussion in 'Talk' started by LarryG, 3 March 2020.

  1. Rippers

    Rippers Western Thunderer

    Shame, over this way beyond your sphere of knowledge we had some interesting vehicles you might have liked...….
    bev bus.jpg
  2. Focalplane

    Focalplane Western Thunderer


    Down south in the Midlands we saw very few liveries. Ones that come to mind are the obvious - Midland Red and Birmingham Corporation - but also visitors like Stratford Blues and the West Bromwich ones - one of which lost its top half on a low bridge, as reported in the Birmingham Post sometime in the late 1950s.

    These days the most obvious local bus services are operated by Johnsons "Excelbus" with their pseudo Singapore Airlines livery. Although based in Henley in Arden, Johnsons coaches can be seen all over the country, perpetuating the quality of properly uniformed drivers who lend an air of safe respectability to their customers.

    So far, in Hampshire, all I have seen is a few Stagecoach buses with perhaps one passenger per bus as one might expect.
  3. LarryG

    LarryG Western Thunderer

    Hi Rippers. Beverley bar roofs of East Yorkshire. I have a general knowledge of this countries buses. As regards the heyday of the bus in Yorkshire, I have a signed copy of a colour album by Geoff Lumb and my pal John Fozard drove for Sammy Ledgard of Leeds.
  4. LarryG

    LarryG Western Thunderer

    When in the mid 1930's it became the fashion to 'streamline' the design of everything, Manchester's staff produced a bus body design that spread far beyond the 'northern union'. I remember well the streamliners on Crossley, Daimler and Leyland chassis, but I never thought much of Crossley's new fatter radiator shell ....
    WEB Bus 93B.jpg

    The new body never sat well on Daimler chassis either. Note the grey roof denoting a 7' 6" wide bus compared with the red roof on the post-war 8' wide Crossley DD42....
    WEB Bus 102.jpg

    EVU 872, a Leyland TD5 with Metro-Cammell - Crossley body, was new in November 1938 and worked hard on all-day services for 15 years. PIctured at Hollinwood, boundary with Oldham, it was withdrawn in January 1958...
    WEB Bus 94C.jpg

    I prepared these drawings in the 1990's with a view to making etchings, but in the end I only got as far as making some useful castings for the 'difficult' bits....
    WEB Bus 99D.jpg

    Leyland produced a good number of buses for Manchester using it's standard body married to MCT's Steamline features including the window pans. The more upright front profile gave them a more modern appearance especially when viewed alongside against the post-war intake...
    WEB Bus 94D.jpg

    A drawing comparing the MCT Streamline body and Leyland's variation....
    WEB Bus 99E.jpg
    Last edited: 2 April 2020
  5. Osgood

    Osgood Western Thunderer

    Having managed to find an example at a bit less than the normal eye-watering price ( :eek: ), I have to agree with you - it is an absolute beauty.:thumbs:
    Apparently 3-d scanned from the real thing.
  6. LarryG

    LarryG Western Thunderer

    3-d scanning seems to be regular practice nowadays, but someone somewhere down the line messes around with the patterns or tools.. We are familiar with over-thick boiler bands on locomotives and beading strips on the roof's of 4mm r-t-r coaches. The same can be said about the beading that covers panel joins on bus bodies. Real beading is not very thick and it should be barely visible when scaled down on a 4mm bus.

    The horizontal beading on buses was a different animal and was around twice as thick as the vertical panel beading. This would definitely be well visible on a small bus. Whether full-size or model, the horizontal beading often assisted the painter if there was a split between colours. It is a topic I had intended to cover.
    Last edited: 2 April 2020
  7. Osgood

    Osgood Western Thunderer

    Is it sometimes done on smaller scale models to make it more 'visible'? If scaled exactly it would be barely noticed.
  8. LarryG

    LarryG Western Thunderer

    After the war, Manchester continued its policy of specifying a custom body, known informally as the 'Postwar Standard' and derived from the Streamliner. Upper deck windows retained the dip at the front although somewhat less than hitherto as well as the'rubbing strip' halfway down the lower body side. This is an 8' wide Metro-Cammell body on a Leyland PD1/3 chassis delivered in July 1949 and withdrawn in July 1968...
    WEB Bus 97C.jpg

    The body became a Crossley Works standard. I was well pleased when Corgi produced their Crossley DD42/3, a 7' 6" wide body representing the first batch delivered to MCT from March 1946. They were unique in the fleet in only having one headlamp ~ It was said they never went fast enough to need two! It was probably more a reference to the poor HOE7 engine. GNF 885 was delivered in March 1947 and withdrawn in December 1962....
    WEB Bus 95B.jpg

    The vertical beading on this model looked particularly overblown. The MCT rubbing strip was also missing, but this was probably done to allow the body to be painted in many other operators liveries. It's a model I'm sure many bus collectors were glad to see...
    WEB Bus 95.jpg

    One of the later 8' wide Crossleys with ribbed straight bottom mudguards. This batch (JND 751-800) were the last MCT buses delivered with grey roofs; all subsequent new buses having red ones. JND 751 was withdrawn in October 1967 and preserved by Greater Manchester Transport...
    WEB Bus 97.jpg

    I photographed JND 791 restored to original MCT livery of cream and red with brown lining at Rochdale on the Trans-Pennine run around 1977.
    The Daimler beside it (JND 728) carries Metro-Cammell's standard 'Phoenix' design with minor mods to suit MCT. 4127 was delivered in December 1950 and passed to SELNEC before being preserved. The road finish gives the impression of cobble stones....
    WEB Bus 97B.jpg
    Last edited: 4 April 2020
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  9. LarryG

    LarryG Western Thunderer

    This thread is a potted overview rather than a detailed history, and in the case of Manchester I have ignored the bodies by Northern Counties, Burlingham and Leyland not to mention the single deckers and trolleybuses. Although MCT had bought some Metro-Cammel 'Orion' bodies of the lightweight type on Daimler chassis, it's Leyland PD2/12 delivered in 1956 had the heavier and improved 'Orion' body weighing in at 7tons 10cwt. Sadly, the EFE models front is too flat and the whole bus stands 14' high instead of 14' 6". Vertical beading is virtually non-existent, which is better than being overscale....

    WEB Bus 96B.jpg

    The Corgi 'Orion' body represent one Leyland PD2/40's delivered in 1958 with very upright front profile special to Manchester. This model stands the correct 14' 6" high and has panelling and the rubbing rail. To me it is by far the better model although the sliding window vents were not as supplied in MCT's buses..

    WEB Bus 96.jpg

    The two models showing the difference in height....
    WEB Bus 96C.jpg

    3673 NE also has the upright-front style of body delivered in 1963, three years after Manchester purchased its first Atlanteans. I was spare man one morning, and because I had a Setright ticket machine and knew the route, I was required to replace a sick conductor on one of these red 'uns. Passengers, even in Delph and Uppermill, were nimbly on and off at all the stops and the MCT driver told me it was because they knew they would be left behind if they hung about! Manchester bus crews certainly never hung about.

    WEB Bus 98.jpg
    Last edited: 4 April 2020
  10. LarryG

    LarryG Western Thunderer

    The big Greenline shows the vertical panel beading is just about the right scale for this size. The 4mm London Transport STL is placed there just to show the relative scales....
    WEB Bus 103.jpg

    This STL was my favourite model for many years and it got me buying London Transport colour albums. Vertical beading is virtually non-existent. It is from the very first batch by EFE and I was going to paint it in Rochdale livery until a pal phoned and said "Hell, don't paint it....They're collectable!"

    WEB Bus 104.jpg

    The vertical beading is much better on this plastic bus by Rapido, although the screw heads are too visible. I wish this company would produce more buses. Plastic is a good material when doing conversions....
    WEB Bus 105.jpg
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  11. Yorkshire Dave

    Yorkshire Dave Western Thunderer

    I do like the Green Line RMC.

    I photographed RMC 4 at Garston Garage open day many moons ago.

    Z Garston 2.jpg
    Last edited: 3 April 2020
  12. John K

    John K Western Thunderer

    Is it your Shadow II in front of the RMC?
    John K
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  13. Yorkshire Dave

    Yorkshire Dave Western Thunderer

    If only it was!

    And I've just realised the Green Line Coach Jubilee livery gives the year away as 1980.
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  14. LarryG

    LarryG Western Thunderer

    Back in the heady 1970's, when preservation and many preserved buses were still relatively young ~ like their owners, I expect most have since changed hands. As the son of one owners told me, a double deck bus can be an encumbrance in old age. Some friends that spring to mind are Stan Fitton (Bury Corporation AEC Regent III), Stan Bishop (SHMD central entrance Daimler), Brian Brown of Westward Models (Bristol MW), John Holmes (Oldham Corporation PD1), and the late John Fozard of North Eastern Design (London Transport RM's). I'm still in regular touch with Brian B. and I know he sold his MW many years ago.

    955 AJO, the City of Oxford Regent V I drove at Gold Star, went into preservation around 1976. Oswyn B. and I followed the AEC driven by its new owner some way down the A55 to see if the bus climbed the steep Rhualt Hill without incident! It must have looked superb when restored to Oxford colours. Oswyn Blythin, owner of Gold Star is seen looking on as the bus was preparing to leave St. Asaph goods yard for the final time. Ex. Maidstone & District RKP 902 was also leaving for the last time....
    WEB Bus 106.jpg

    NKT 901 was from an earlier generation before I drove at Gold Star. This ex.Maidstone & District Leyland PD2 with Leyland Farington body had met with an accident and required some remedial treatment to the lower offside. It hadn't run for some time and I gave some consideration to buying it for restoration in Oldham's colours. I think commonsense ruled in the end...
    WEB Bus 107.jpg
  15. LarryG

    LarryG Western Thunderer

    Aspects of life often set us thinking that time passes us by very quickly. Last year, I found it hard to believe that the setting up of Passenger Transport Authorities (PTA's) took place 50 years ago on 1st November 1969. In railway terms, it was the equivalent of 1948 to bus enthusiasts. The municipally owned passenger transport systems were merged to form designated conurbations and the act provided powers for further authorities to be set up. Town boundaries within conurbations could technically be torn down but for staff, the age-old rear open platforms would be phased out and the elimination of conductors would be accelerated.

    50 years ago I was given tinlets of many of the old municipal colours and this self-adhesive Selnec badge...
    WEB Bus 108.jpg

    My Wolseley runabout was about to MOT-Fail so I acquired a Morris (same body style) and had the Wolseley engine transferred to it plus two of the better doors. I got some Dayglo orange and repainted the car in SELNEC livery. John Holmes was picked up in Oldham and we set off for Ashton-U-Lyne to photograph their buses. We soon realised the livery led some bus crews to assume the inspectors were running about in cars......
    WEB Bus 109.jpg
    WEB Bus108B.jpg
    Last edited: 5 April 2020
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  16. LarryG

    LarryG Western Thunderer

    Writing up this thread revived my interest in old buses, and so this little Corgi gem arrived last week. Corgi pulled out all the stops for this model.....
    WEB Bus 110.jpg WEB Bus 110B.jpg

    I would bomb off down to Ashton-U-Lyne on whichever bus took my fancy and see what kind of buses were on the Hyde route. If a Stockport Crossley was on the service, it was a no-brainer. Stockport No.331 from the final 1951 batch stands behind Ashton's No.8 in pre-1955 dark blue livery...
    WEB Bus 110D.jpg

    As with all the various chassis makers, Crossley's had their own distinctive sound and the Crossley-built bodies were almost coach like in the comfort department. This is the other end of the Route 30 at Stockport Mersey Square.....
    WEB Bus 110C.jpg

    I hope someday it will be followed by a pre-war Leyland TD5 with Leyland body, a combination seen right across the Britian until the late 1950's....
    WEB Bus 110E.jpg
    Last edited: 19 April 2020
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  17. Lincman

    Lincman New Member

    Really enjoying reading your memories of Oldham,as an ex employee of Mumps it has certainly stirred the little grey cells.Now retired I would like to model some Oldham buses in post 66 livery ,but I am having a problem getting a match for Pommard do you have any suggestions please
  18. LarryG

    LarryG Western Thunderer

    Thanks. I had some of the real Oldham corporation Pommard in the early 1970's and painted some Atlanteans built from whitemetal kits of the day. I would start by adding white to BR maroon and take it from there. You might have to add signal red as well, but this is all off the top of my head, as I have never mixed Pommard.