G3 LSWR Open wagon kit

[jamiepage]

Williams Models have, in conjunction with Tony Riley, introduced a model of a LSWR round ended wagon to D1309.
I'm no expert on LSWR matters, but the body represents a four plank version, the lower plank being wider than the other three. There are one or two photos in LSWR Wagons Vol 1 but I shall look for more as well.
According to the book, these wagons probably had sheet rails fitted during pre- grouping days; if so, I may have to scratchbuild a representation because it doesn't appear to be included in the kit.

The body sections, solebars etc have been cut from wood, and they have been packaged together with Williams' standard components for sprung buffers, axleguards, Panter axleboxes, brake gear etc. Numerous plastic castings for strapping etc,separate bolt castings, various rivets, wire etc, and good instructions complete the parts, the whole being presented in a substantial box.

The only progress tonight has been to scribe the body side door vertical joints and to liberally coat all wooden components with sanding sealer ready for rubbing down tomorrow. The rather thick coat has caught the light in the photo., but will sand down well.

First impressions of the wooden components are very favourable. Dimensionally good, the edges are all crisp and square, and the outer planking has been scored to represent the prototype chamfering. A nice touch.
Main body panels are presumably basswood, not sure what the darker wood is, but it is close grained and all cut very square. End stanchions are chamfered. Floor panel is ply.


The plastic mouldings look good at first sight. Lots of other little bits which will no doubt all have a purpose.


The remaining items for running gear etc.


All in all, a comprehensive kit of parts and I'm looking forward to getting on with it.

 

[AndyB]

I'll be following with interest as I also have one of these kits.
I started by doing a bit if cleaning up on the buffer housings and running a file around some of the laser cut steel parts!
Good idea on the sanding sealer though (was that in the instructions?) - I was wondering about paint adhesion, etc.
I believe the dark wood is walnut.

I don't have a copy of the relevant book, so if a kind soul could scan the relevant pages for me (for personal research purposes!) I'd be much obliged. (I already have a shelf full of wagon books on the MR, LNW, L&Y, NSR & LMS...).

Andy

 

[jamiepage]

Andy,
I don't think sanding sealer is mentioned, although I had sloshed it on before reading the instructions. Don't really know whether it is necessary, but on previous basswood models, a single coat of sealer followed by rubbing down with flour paper had resulted in a smoother finish (as one would expect from the name!) but still some faint definition. Previous models have been overpainted with varying combinations of primers, enamels and acrylics.
The tin I have is ancient, but was from H. Marcel Guest Ltd, 'model paints for the perfectionist'. The smell is almost certainly addictive and probably bad for you, but it takes me straight back 50 years to earning pocket money doping Tiger Moth wing panels.

I will happily copy and send you the relevant pages. Scanning is too high tech so could you pm your address (again, sorry) and I will send them to you.
Jamie

 

[farnetti]

From my wooden ship modelling days, and for reasons I can't remember a Shellac based sanding sealer was always preferred over a modern synthetic one. Not so easy to find these days, but there are sources on the net.

 

[Mike W]

Sanding sealer is not mentioned in the instructions because I didn't think of it. One reason is that whilst my own is finished, its not yet painted at all. In fact I see the painting section of the instructions still refers to resin. Thanks for pointing it out and I'll change the notes when this discussion concludes here.

Mike

 

[Mike W]

Jamie,
You are right that the book suggests most of these wagons had sheet rails in pre-Grouping days. I had hoped to offer the parts from my LBSC open wagon kit, but the curved angle guide at the ends is a very different size. However, thanks to Geoff Nicholls I now have patterns for the correct type and will be offering these as an extra in due course.
Mike

 

[AndyB]

What is the tool of choice for plank scribing?
I've been trying a few this evening on the floor, and the pointed tip of my odd-leg calipers seems to be giving the best result so far. It has a kind of faceted tip as I sharpened it some time ago on the cutter grinder.
Also took a bit of checking through my other references to decide where to put the non-7" planks (7" into 14' 11" doesn't go exactly!), and whether they should be > or < 7".

My dense moment for today - It took me a while to work out that the sides extend beyond the end planks, and was all set to send Mike an email asking why the floor was too short or the ends were too long ;-)

Andy

 

[Dog Star]

... checking through my other references to decide where to put the non-7" planks (7" into 14' 11" doesn't go exactly!), and whether they should be > or < 7".

Floor planks extend under the "end" sheeting at either end of a wagon with a wood body (generally), hence the provision of plates, on the headstock, at the open end to stop the floor from going down the shute when the wagon is tipped. Align the planks symmetrically around the centre-line of the wagon, if the distance over headstocks is not integral with respect to the width of the floor planks then the outermost (two) planks are going to be narrower than the other floor planks..

 

[Mike W]

Tony uses a slitting saw in the lathe Andy. They can be ground to the shape required - angled, square or to give a double groove like tongued-and-grooved boards. Jim Richards did the same thing in 7mm but used a bank of saws on a mandrel with packings between, cutting all the board marks on the whole side in one go. I used his machine and the results were very nice. His method is really only worthwhile if you intend, plan and cut hundreds of wagons - as he did.
Mike

 

[geoff_nicholls]

interesting to see plastic parts in the kit. I'd like to know how that's done, I'd always thought plastic meant injection moulding, which meant high costs, viable only in high volume sales. What sort of plastic?

 

[Mike W]

You are right Geoff, that plastic usually means expensive steel dies which are justified for runs of 10,000s rather than tens. But, I suspect you are old enough to remember Colin Binnie. At the Easter MRC show each year you knew at the entrance whether Colin was there as you could smell the plastic everywhere! He adapted an old soldering iron to have a melting pot in place of a bit, and used a small drill press. He still used steel dies, made from plates fixed together.

Well, Colin is alas no longer with us, though his son Peter is and still attending 16mm shows with a trade stand. Anyway, Tony Riley uses a similar method. This site also tells you exactly what he plastic is that Peter uses.
Binnie Engineering - summerlands-chuffer.co.uk

However, I suspect there are several Gauge 1 people on here who have known Tony and his products far longer than I have - any care to chip in with a critique of his products?

Mike

 

[AndyB]

What is the tool of choice for plank scribing?

Maybe I wasn't clear. I meant - .... to do what the instructions state, i.e. by the kit builder for a one-off.

Andy

 

[jamiepage]

The plastic is 'soft' to work, but quite ok. Hex headed bolt detail is crisp. Slaters Mek-Pak 'grabs' it well and bits I stuck on yesterday still seem securely in place. It is quite amenable to filing and scraping- I felt an urge to reduce the diagonal strapping's thickness and managed to reduce it significantly without too much effort.
I have not used Tony Riley parts before but I am impressed with the effort that has gone into producing them. They are far more than a set of raw materials; it is more akin to taking over someone else's well- built, half finished project.
There is clear attention to detail, both prototypically but also in the thinking behind the kit. The inclusion of a specially marked sacrificial length of end stanchion to use whilst preparing some strapping is a case in point.

 

[AndyB]

A quick web trawl turns up a reference to some articles by Colin Binie - Model Railway News in four parts, June to September 1968. Anyone have these, for interests sake?
Also Model Railways August 1972.
Also an article by Stewart Hine in MRJ No.55.

Andy

 

[jamiepage]

Andy,
Mine will have a coal load but I too have one scriber that works cleanly on ply. It must just be a happy fluke of the way it has been ground, coupled with angle of dangle.
I suspect most floor boarding was square cut and flush, so maybe only an understated fine scribing is needed.
Actually, a small screwdriver I have to hand, used on edge, has just left good, consistent marks with no tearing. So that has now become the new weapon of choice.
Jamie

 

[jamiepage]

Small steps.

The ends of the sides will be visible so the plank joints were nicked.

The wagon will be loaded up so only part of the top plank will be visible. With that in mind, some toning of the internal planking has been done, preparatory to applying any visible internal detail. White ink plus various weathering powders made a bit of difference which will do until construction is finished. After that, a bit of dry brushing with darker tones or gunmetal may bring it out a bit.


External strapping is being applied.
I couldn't get the bolts on the body straps to align properly with the planks so they (the bolt heads) were sliced off.
The basic moulding was good so it was re-used and drilled for cosmetic nuts. It was awkward to mark and spot the holes on these straps, mainly because of their colour, so it was difficult to achieve straight rows and I'm not sure the efforts were worthwhile. More work is still needed at the door catches.
The prototype's tapered side knees were substantial, measuring 2 inches thick at the bottom. (According to a works GA of a similar wagon diagram). The kit mouldings are nicely tapered, but were a little too thin so replacements were filed up.
Again, it meant drilling for replacement nuts, and it would have been just as good to have backed the mouldings with plasticard to increase their depth. Or just live with them as they are.
The same works GA showed the end straps to be 1/4 in. thick, and the diagonals likewise, or maybe 3/8 in. In both cases the mouldings were over thick so the same initial enthusiasm led to a decision to replace them as well. The end straps were easy to replace, but the diagonals were awkward so in the end I scraped away at the mouldings, reduced their thickness to something approaching 0.4mm and used them instead.
Overall, the original mouldings would be perfectly fine, and would save an awful lot of effort.

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Jamie
I have bought one of these wagons and so, I'm watching your progress with much interest.
If you have already started on weathering the inside, how difficult will it be to mask this off for painting the outside? I'm presuming that you will spray the outside colour.

Jon

 

[jamiepage]

Jon,
The weathering was just an early skirmish really, just to get some variety to the colouring. With or without the weathering however, the idea is to keep a natural wood finish internally, so I will either brush paint the outside surfaces, or mask off around the capping strips, spray the body, then touch them up afterwards. I hope it won't be a problem to do it either way; I'll let you know, though!
Jamie
PS It is a good kit.
PPS Do you know of any transfers?

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Jamie
I've had a look at Fox's but nothing there. Not sure if Mike has any, though.
I like the idea of having a natural wood finish internally at least, it would be the only wagon that I've built to have one.

Jon

 

[jamiepage]

Thanks Jon,
As it happens, I emailed Fox today and await their reply.
Jamie