G3 Track and wheel standards

[jamiepage]

Mike,
Fair enough, I'll wait a bit. We will all need your buffers!
Have just enjoyed a quick session on the lathe following unklian's explanation.

1. The slaters wheels were removed from axle, chucked rear face outward, simply held on the tread, and 0.5mm removed across the rear face. Overall tyre thickness reduced to 6.5mm. The spokes were rebated by a further 1.0mm. for appearances sake.
2. Then mounted in turn on a mandrel front face out, the flanges were reduced to 1.6mm depth and filed to profile.
3. Axle was mounted, one end in the 3 jaw, outer end in a piece of pb held in tailstock (drilled from chuck). Taper turned with topslide at iro 0.75 degrees. Taper turned from tailstock to centre of axle first, then reversed and the other side cut to meet. The original 6.35mm dia. was held at each end.
4. Two washers turned up at c. 1.0mm thickness. OD approx 10mm to represent part of the wheel hub as shown on a drawing of the period. All pushed back on and Back to Back checked at 60.00mm +/- o.1 mm

All good fun, and quick. The spoke rear edges feathered a little but a quick scrape with knife shaved it off (although I can see a couple of missed bits).

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Jamie
You obviously managed to hold the wheels on a mandrel without the plastic spokes breaking out. What does your mandrel setup look like? That doesn't sound grammatically correct but, I'm sure you know what I mean

Jon

 

[jamiepage]

Jon,
The backplate was simply a piece of bar in the 3 jaw with OD just less than final flange diameter. This was faced off in situ and drilled for a piece of 4mm rod.
The wheel was pushed onto that and simply held against the backplate by a turned ring acting on the tyre front face. The ring (actually a solid disk relieved to clear the wheel centre) was held by a live centre. It was pushed against the wheel front face, tailstock and ram locked and the flange shaved off. It is a good way to hold things if you don't also need to address the front face of the wheel (as in this case).
I'll have a go at photographing it, although it's only a couple of bits of scrap so not tidy.
Jamie

 

[jamiepage]

The wheel was first thinned by removing 0.5mm from the rear face, simply held on tread in the 3 jaw.

Scrag end turned up to form 'retaining ring'. Diameter just less than tread dia. Drilled to clear wheel centres.


Another scrag end held in 3 jaw, turned to c. wheel tread dia., faced off and drilled 4mm. 4mm rod inserted. (Actually the drill itself to be honest)


Wheel just pushed on.



The 'retaining ring' pushed up against wheel, using a live centre. All tensioned to hold, tailstock and ram locked. The live centre could simply push up against the rear of a plain retainer; the rear facing spigot just happened to be there and there was no point in turning it off.


Turn down the flange depth. File to final shape, polish.

 

[Mike W]

Jamie,

To my inexpert eye that is vastly better.

I wasn't serious about Malcolm - call him any time!

Mike

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Jamie
Thanks for the reply and the pictures. Some of my cast wheels from Mark Wood (Lion's to be exact) have quite fine spokes and your setup will help stop the advancement of grey hair and keep the nerves a bit calmer

Jon

 

[jamiepage]

Jon,
You're welcome. But could I say I learnt the hard way just how fine Mark Wood's spokes were, too fine to take turning forces, and learnt (again) rule number 1. - read the instructions.
His website has an excellent step by step write up on how to turn his castings and I would most strongly recommend you follow them. The castings themselves, plus the turning diagram that probably came with them, are all designed to be machined exactly as he describes. Bear in mind of course, the cheap and cheerful method I used wouldn't allow any machining of the wheel's front face.
Yours
Jamie

 

[unklian]

Excellent work there Jamie, I like the tapered axle and the rebating of the back of the spokes. I will have to have another go at some of my wheel sets I can see.
I can't help wondering now where we go from here though. As you said you went over to Scale7 from O gauge, I also went from OO to S4 and HO to P87. But SpurII seems to be a step into much less charted waters. I think at the end of the day it all depends on if we need compatibility with the G3 society and the ability to run at their GTG's. As it is at the moment I am doing both, my 14XX and british wagons being to G3 standards, and what I started with, Western Rly of France being to Spur II. It is a quandary, the 14XX would be a swine to convert to Spur II and I do not want to go back to coarse standards with my French stock.
So as you all like pictures here is the other side of my G3 coin.


Cheers Ian

 

[jamiepage]

Well blow me down. I saw your French layout a few years ago at an AGM and was impressed- and nearly swayed- then. I very much liked the crisp, 'light' look to it all.
I hadn't made the connection though.
I've never settled at any scale, gauge or standard to be honest; good at starting but not at finishing. But I'm temped to do something more in Spur II. If nothing else, a small electric (pre- grouping) loco I have started would be a quirky thing to finish to Spur II standards, plus a few wagons, and I must try a bit of turnout construction.
Maybe you've got it right? A universal outside track for various 'trains in the countryside', and a proper, high fidelity internal layout. Best of both worlds perhaps.
At least the scale is constant so all the G3 kits, components etc scan across both projects.
Jamie

 

[unklian]

Thank you Jamie,
I do wish there was an easier way of changing wheel sets on wagons, undoing and then replacing 8 14BA nuts and bolts each time is a right fiddle ! ( I think it might be impossible on a GRS kit ) An easier way would help me waver between the two sets of standards .

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Okay, chaps. What is Spur II?

Jon

 

[ceejaydee]

Well blow me down. I saw your French layout a few years ago at an AGM and was impressed...
Jamie

I remember this from a couple of years ago (at Biggleswade I think) and admired the riveting on the tank loco and from memory a model in was it N of the proposed layout?

I've never settled at any scale, gauge or standard to be honest; good at starting but not at finishing.
Jamie

I can identify with this I'm afraid - plenty to attract and stimulate interest but not much to hold that interest - still looking for that model railway utopia which I'm not sure exists (for me)

Whilst I've dipped a toe into the water I am fairly content to admire G3 from afar as I could only fit in a 6' radius circle in my tiny garden

 

[ceejaydee]

Okay, chaps. What is Spur II?

Jon

German (continental) G3 with finer track standards I think.... have a look on youtube for 'spur 2' for some droolworthy layouts

 

[JimG]

Okay, chaps. What is Spur II?

Jon,

http://www.spur-ii.de/ausstellungen.html

The web page has all the details. It's in German but if you get a translation facility in your browser, it reads very easily.

Jim.

 

[unklian]

Wow, I am flattered that my efforts have proven memorable to some of you, thank you .

Okay, chaps. What is Spur II?

Jon

Sorry Jon mustn't assume everyone knows what I am talking about. Jim has given you the best ref on t'internet . Spur II is strictly a set of standards for model railways to 1:22.5 scale. It covers both standard gauge ( equivalent to our G3 ) and narrow gauges too (generally 45mm, 32mm, and gauges less than 30mm assorted ). The standards are ratified with the NEM, which set standards for all model railway scales in Europe . There is an English page of information on the site. Of particular interest to some G3 modellers are their finer track and wheel standards .
If you have time on your hands you could try http://www.buntbahn.de/modellbau/ for more large scale finescale German shenanigans !

Cheers Ian

PS, it would appear to be lost in the mists of time why we call it three, the Germans call it II and the French model in 1:20 scale .

 

[ceejaydee]

Wow, I am flattered that my efforts have proven memorable to some of you, thank you .



Sorry Jon mustn't assume everyone knows what I am talking about. Jim has given you the best ref on t'internet . Spur II is strictly a set of standards for model railways to 1:22.5 scale. It covers both standard gauge ( equivalent to our G3 ) and narrow gauges too (generally 45mm, 32mm, and gauges less than 30mm assorted ). The standards are ratified with the NEM, which set standards for all model railway scales in Europe . There is an English page of information on the site. Of particular interest to some G3 modellers are their finer track and wheel standards .
If you have time on your hands you could try http://www.buntbahn.de/modellbau/ for more large scale finescale German shenanigans !

Cheers Ian

PS, it would appear to be lost in the mists of time why we call it three, the Germans call it II and the French model in 1:20 scale .

I think we call it three because Gauge 1 is 1 3/4" Gauge and the now extinct Gauge 2 was 2" and then Gauge three is 2 1/2" (although I think G2 was originally 2.5" but then renamed when a 2" gauge was adopted)
Maybe the obsolescence of G2 meant that as Gauge 3 naturally comes after Gauge 1 or Spur I then it (G3) becomes Spur II?

I don't claim to be any kind authority on gauges but I find the history of it all quite fascinating and remember an article on garden gauges in Garden Rail many years ago that first introduced me to G3

 

[Mike W]

Quite so Christopher, but even the Germans didn't agree at first with Bing and Carette using different names, all because they measured the gauge from a different part of the rail - centres I think rather than inside edge. So, I have some very early gauge "III" track which is actually gauge "II". Its a mindfield.

Fortunately, for the last 50 years and more we have all used the same scale and the same gauge!

Mike