Gloucester 6 ton coal wagon

Discussion in 'G3' started by Jon Nazareth, 21 April 2020.

  1. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    I noticed that all of the nuts used on this wagon are square. Not fool enough to have a go at the ones used on the straps which are smaller, I was fool enough to make up 65 for those that are located on the sole plate and these are threaded 14BA. I also noted that there weren't any washers underneath these large nuts and so, I made some of those as well. They are .005" thick and they cupped slightly after parting off. I'm hoping that they will flatten when the nuts are tightened up.
    It seems strange that they didn't use washers originally as the nuts would have made a bit of a mess of the sole plates when done up. Unless, they were just held and the bolt on the inside was turned and not the nut. We'll probably never know.


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  2. geoff_nicholls

    geoff_nicholls Western Thunderer

    I think if you check the drawings and photos of wagons of the companies that use square nuts, they are all lined up square so you may be partly correct about turning the screw not the nut. And when you see wagons with nuts not lined up they look wrong (Unless that's just me)
    Dog Star likes this.
  3. Spitfire2865

    Spitfire2865 Western Thunderer

    As the bolts were through wood, Id expect to be able to tighten the nuts then a little more to square them up. Its rather hard to turn a carriage bolt once its home.
    Dog Star likes this.
  4. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

    Perhaps the final tighten on the nuts to square them up is intentional from a safety point of view. If they are all squared up then any working loose will be apparent because as @geoff_nicholls says "they look wrong".
    geoff_nicholls likes this.
  5. Allen M

    Allen M Western Thunderer

    Hi all
    As to nuts being lined up I am sure it was the culture of the time. My late father started work in 1920 at 13 years old to a company that were principally wheel right & cabinet makers. However as the time & depression progressed they did anything with timber, large or small. He insisted that unless it was impossible that all nuts and screw heads, square, hexagon or slotted should line up.
    Allen Morgan
    Peter Cross and mswjr like this.
  6. Ressaldar

    Ressaldar Western Thunderer

    I have known Clerks of Works, especially those employed by the Property Services Agency and the Prison Service (these were in fact the usual Mr McKay Prison Officers with the Contract Specification under the armpits) reject acceptance of joinery, doorsets in particular if the screw slots were not all vertical in line with the main body of a hinge.

    Stay safe and well.


  7. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    The builder of our last kitchen, in an early 19th Century ex-ale house, was local. I bought a number of ledge and brace doors to build the carcasses and all the screws used on the exterior hinges and the rest of the build, whether visible or not, had vertical slots. No Phillips screws here!!

    Having just had a kitchen built in our new and older house we had some problems actually buying slotted screws in certain sizes. Neither did our new builders line up the screws or worry about using slotted screws unless we insisted. Build quality was excellent though, but lining up of screws was simply not regarded as important.

    Changed times.

    Not quite sure what this has to do with wagons, but I'm subverting the thread yet again - with apologies.

  8. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    I knew an old carpenter who would always line up slotted screw heads vertically as that was what he was taught to do. Maybe wagon builders followed the same rule with square nuts. Oh well, I'll have to go back and line them all up now......

    mswjr likes this.
  9. mswjr

    mswjr Western Thunderer

    Agree, I agree with that and what Allen m said above, When I started my engineering Apprenticeship in the early 1970s, The carpenter at the factory would come around and do woodwork stuff, like hang door's , fit the door fitting's etc , He was from the generation before as he was an old guy But he too lined up all his slotted screw head's So I would say yes He and generation's before him were proud of their Skill's ,So Wagon square nut's were probably all lined up ,and would be a follow on from the skilled wagon and coach fitter's before, So now I expect we will all be looking at early picture's to see.
  10. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    The first image shows some 16BA slotted screws that I've filed the heads off to make them look more like coach bolts and the first corner plate drilled and ready to be fitted.
    Second image shows the corner plate in place and held mechanically with 16BA nuts. The vacant hole is for a bracket for an horizontal hand rail at least, I think that's what it is. Also shown are some of the square nuts in the solebar all vertically lined up.


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  11. mswjr

    mswjr Western Thunderer

    16 BA,, I bet putting those nuts on that one corner plate took you an age in 16 ba I struggle with 12 ba.
    michael mott likes this.
  12. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    I had the same problem holding 16ba nuts until I made the little nut holder below. It's simply a bit of brass drilled out one end and filled with araldite. Once the araldite starts to go off, press in a nut wound onto a screw, after brushing a bit of oil onto the nut to stop it sticking. To use, a nut is picked up with tweezers and placed into the depression and offered up to the screw one turn and the nut is on the screw. The idea is that this little gizmo is just to get the nut onto the screw and not to use it as a socket spanner. The socket spanner/driver, is used for that purpose. I turned the end down with a carbide tipped cutter so that it can be used in tight spaces. The other gizmo is for 14ba nuts where the same principal for use is used. I found a grub screw that had the same hex head as a 14ba nut which made things a lot simpler. The 16ba version is almost worn out from use but it still functions, just about.


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    BG Rich, Peter Cross, Ian_T and 7 others like this.
  13. mswjr

    mswjr Western Thunderer

    Thankyou A useful tip
  14. michl080

    michl080 Western Thunderer

    Good evening,

    in the metric world, Allen screws can be used as nut holders: A M3 screw is good for a M1 nut, M5 for M2 and M6 for M2.5. For larger sizes, sizes don't match. But spanners for these sizes are easier to get.

    Peter Cross likes this.
  15. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    One of the reasons that I'm still going Imperial, when I can, is because the small metric nuts and bolts that i have been buying are thicker/have thicker heads, than BA. When building Enigma, I used metric 1mm bolts along the frame sides but I turned the heads to make them thinner. Not sure what I'm going to do with 16 BA nuts getting harder to find and the ones that I have run out. Items Mail Order has now sold out of 16 BA nuts and he says he's not buying any more as he was asked to buy so many thousands and it wouldn't have been viable for him.

  16. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    P.S. It is good to know that I can use metric Allen screws this way as I'll probably have to go down the metric road one day.

  17. Mike W

    Mike W Western Thunderer

    I find the opposite with rivets Jon. When I started Gauge 3, 18 years ago I thought metric would become easier to obtain, so I used 1mm rivets. But small metric rivets are getting harder to find whereas small imperial ones are easier and cheaper.
  18. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer


    Here's one of the wagons showing the rest of the metalwork in place. The other end is a bit of mystery as the drawing isn't that clear but, I'm sure that I'll think of something. I have an NB coal wagon with an end door and that should provide some guidance.

  19. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

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    I managed to make and fit some of the hinge straps to the door end. The buffers, which were fixed with araldite, had to be removed as the rear ends interfered with the drilling and fitting of the lower 16 BA screws through the sole bar. I'll refit them just before it's time to paint the completed wagons. I've also blanked off the holes for the safety chains and hooks with the intention of moving them closer to the draw hook as per the prototype.
    While looking at the brakes and the strapping on the sides, I kept wondering why things weren't lining up so well and then realised that the leaf springs, through no one's fault but my own, were too long. This has reduced the available space for the fitting of the double brake shoes and so, I'm having to go with just the one brake per wagon. A silly mistake really, I never thought to check the spring length.
    Next on the list are two straps that are fixed to the door with one end wrapped around the 'hinge pin', for want of a better phrase.

  20. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

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    One door end finished. The door end on the other wagon is almost there too. I've nearly run out of reduced head 16 BA screws so, I had better get filing. I though that I'd made a fairly accurate count of how many that I needed but obviously got it wrong :)