Wantage Tramway Jane No. 5 in 4mm

Discussion in 'Workbenches, including workshop techniques.' started by AdeMoore, 9 September 2018.

  1. AdeMoore

    AdeMoore Western Thunderer

    Chris, Mike and Brian on my new members thread indicated they may be interested in seeing what I’m up to on the bench. (It’s an old School desk!).
    I will start by saying this is pretty ambitious as a first build. I’ve not built anything other than a Parkside wagon a card station kit free with a mag, and a scratch over bridge before that’s it, 20 years ago.
    Quick background I made a layout for my son now 26, expanding on a TTE set 19 years ago maybe. After a year or so it was mothballed and the stock and bits boxed. Last autumn I got pretty ill just an escalation of reactive arthritis I’ve had all my adult life. So getting out and about was becoming difficult. With an interest in model railways rekindled, I think due to something that came up on my timeline on FB, I started browsing eBay as my main interest is S&D I eventually won a West Country loco. Then I started browsing RMweb when I found that, Jack my son got the baseboards out the loft for me, said he wouldn’t want them in his house.
    So I put it together after being allocated the spare room. Next I got double pneumonia and had a stay in intensive care etc. On returning home to further recover I thought all this spare time I’ll commence the No.5 build I dreamt of 19 years earlier.
    I had bought many items then from Challis Models in Shepton Mallet for the build. I couldn’t find all my MRJ articles on the 7mm build but putting out a call on RMweb Dave Sutton came to my rescue.
    I always had the notion I would reduce the drawings by photocopier and so it proved. B9AD7B4E-BDD7-4A89-B2AB-D236ABB957C9.jpeg

    Now first off Dave Sutton wanted to build one himself so set about a plastikard mock up ready for some etch drawings he was producing. He mentioned the axle centres at 24mm I measured my photo copy I had 19mm what I should of done is mark 7mm on the sheet and made sure it measured 4mm coming off the photocopier. I’ve now read I should reduce by 57% I don’t think that was the figure I came up with when I did it. So photo above is the close shave nearly building it to small!

    Below soldering two frame blanks 0.5mm together.
    So confined to barracks not allowed out snow just gone can’t use the pillar drill in the shed. I have to use my multi drill heath robinson style to do any drilling.

    4mm hornblock guides to big! But I have a plan.
    Axle holes


    Awful drilling below as I struggled to magnify what I’m looking at and drill control.

    I decided to open up the holes to get them nicer rather than try to fill them.

    6194C8EE-2906-48B0-B8AF-2365B2A972C6.jpeg F6A7D834-B4F8-4F5D-A4A0-5075094F9378.jpeg E8B2DFD5-8B12-4AFB-B788-D0F42FDD9C8E.jpeg
    Filing the footplate side flat after cutting the frames from the sheet.


    That’s it only 15 photos allowed so it will be many posts yet.

    Attached Files:

  2. John57sharp

    John57sharp Western Thunderer

    Looking forward to seeing more of this build. Most intriguing.

    AdeMoore likes this.
  3. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

    Quite remarkable results given the tools you are using. Although I think you'd find the filing a lot easier if you got a small bench vice to hold the metal rather than the bulldog clips you can get small ones that would screw onto the edge of your workbench. Also on a matter of safety please get a handle on that file, they can cause quite a lot of damage to your hands in that state.
  4. AdeMoore

    AdeMoore Western Thunderer

    Thanks John,
    I see I have 2 attachments above not used well one is, I have to be more careful as only 13 images in text!
    Actually not all those of you looking in will be familiar with the prototype so a few photos of that.



    Nice little video here

    Ok where were we.

    Splitting the two frames, I didn’t realise the bottom frame I had nearly broken out the rear axle hole but soldering in the Bush should sort it.

    Next frame spacers squaring up the sheet.

    Slitting disc to cut out spacers then file up and as below file a grove for easy folding.

    First go at soldering with my old 40w Woolworths iron! It’ll get better as time goes on.

    Below the jig I came up with to solder up the frames, I didn’t know about the cramp being a huge heat sink at the time. So it took a fair of heat!

    Below frames with a Jinty body for an idea of scale.

    Hornblocks I made fit direct into frames by opening up the slots with the cutting disc then a piece of scrap brass as a keep.
    Axle bushes on the back soldered in.


    Should of made the frames narrower as now the wheels won’t fit on the axles with the horn blocks (Dave Sutton was behind my build at this stage with his, but he didn’t bother with compensation if that’s the right word, I wouldn’t if I had my time again). So out came the file to reduce down the width of the hornblocks as far as I dare. No bench vice so hence the contraption to hold the frames here.

    Good moment a rolling chassis.

    Next coupling rods! MRJ guide suggested steel in 7mm so that’s what I did! All I could find at home was a cut nail so after to many hours this. That’s actually the connecting rods below but you get the idea. Cut lengthwise for a pair.


    There was fairy god father in the form of Dave that came along as you’ll see next time.
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  5. AdeMoore

    AdeMoore Western Thunderer

    Adrian thanks for the comment I didn’t see it as I was composing the above. No bench vice as money was tight. I was on just SSP off work recovering. Yeah I know about the files but Without a vice laying them flat and working the brass hand held upon them worked out better for me.
    Just bought a vice 2 weeks ago. The above is about March 19th 2018, I didn’t get back to work full time until May 1st.
  6. AdeMoore

    AdeMoore Western Thunderer

    Coupling rods continued.
    Multi tool drill to drill hole for bushes, the only magnifier I had at this stage was on the helping hands holder so struggled sum what.

    Checking on the crankpins, you’ll note thread stick showing on those where I couldn’t screw them home.

    Advice on RMweb was to drill out the thread in the wheel a bit for more clearance, good advice that worked.

    Things were looking ok they just needed thining down.
    55C26F38-586C-4556-9997-774887D974A8.jpeg 6FDCACF2-58D9-482F-AC0C-0C3F94AA45B6.jpeg 4A1DC5DF-208C-47A9-88B9-7A310621C954.jpeg

    Ok so Dave had overtaken me and pretty well completed his build by this stage as he had drawn an etch kit and had it made and was so smitten with the little loco he was all out building it.
    We were in contact and he proved a very generous chap, already he had refused any recompense for copying in excess of 50 pages from MRJ for me. Then as he was building Shannon from the Sandy & Potton Tramway (1850) which was what became No. 5 at Wantage, that was cabless he offered me the bits of his unused etch which had doubles on and P4 parts.
    I gladly accepted, posted to me FOC wouldn’t accept any payment just said, Quote “It's yours for Gratis..Freebie...Nuffink...even if you only use a few bits as for me it's the fun of the build” Thank you again Dave.
    His excellent build here http://www.rmweb.co....-or-bre/page-29

    So now I had some etched coupling rods they were far better so I ditched mine. Laminated his etches first time I’ve ever soldered a laminated etch part. Checked the centres um as tight and perfect as my rough ones. I still liked them so much more I moved on and spread the bush holes. No one will notice those holes will they!


    Drilling out for bushes

    Connecting rods done.

    Then the bushes were much to wide but try as I might I could only succeed in ruining them trying to file them narrower.
    I did get advice and eventually manage it. More on that later in the build.

    Put together to see how it ran.

    Rather pleased so far Jinty taking it for its 1st run!

    So fed up trying to narrow the bushes I started on the cylinders. 0.25 brass sheet now sniped out to shape, had to be about 6mm wider due to how narrow you can get the front wheel nut. Filed it as fine as I dare. See my added width on template below.
    More soon that’s another 15 photos
  7. Brian T

    Brian T Western Thunderer

    Wow...looks like you`ve had a bit of a steep learning cuve so far with your first scratch build and with only basic tools too!.
    My hat`s off to you for 'going for it' so to say,especially with such a small loco in 4mm.....

    look fordward to seeing some more.

    SLNCR57, simond and AdeMoore like this.
  8. AdeMoore

    AdeMoore Western Thunderer

    Thanks Brian
  9. AdeMoore

    AdeMoore Western Thunderer

    Ok time for another 15 update!
    Cut out a fold up section of the cylinders, idea from Daves thread.

    Drilling for the piston tubes.


    Drilling both cylinder covers as a pair.

    Offered up for fit proved out on one side to wide.

    Soldering over old hole on aluminium (solder doesn’t stick to it). Waste of time redrilling hole out it came!

    Drilling new hole about 1mm closer in.

    Time to solder it all up with 145deg solder.

    Right I mentioned earlier up the thread about narrowing the crankpin bushes and I’d given up. Well Peter Cross persisted and advised how to do it. Stick em in the coupling rods and file em down! Obvious when you know. Below was as I had it terribly wide.

    Filing in action.

    Before and after. Thined the collar to.

    Set up after. I must get some 70deg out and fill those gaps in the laminations.

    Next I looked at the crossheads, 4 laminations! And blumin tiny seen below I skipped that for now.

    Cheers for now
    More soon.
    Last edited: 10 September 2018
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  10. AdeMoore

    AdeMoore Western Thunderer

    So 15 more on this update. I dodged the tiny tiny crossheads for now. Below was the cylinder block attached to the frames the original hole just drilled from the info in the MRJ didn’t line up so had to drill another. Front plate and piston tube mocked up for fit. Tubes to low here aligned with connecting rod should be about centre of wheel so filed the frame slot deeper to sort that. 205F8129-199C-4750-A147-F5257FD694BA.jpeg

    Next I tried to move on to the valve chest covers, I only had 145 deg. solder and trying to do three pieces of brass it was hopeless as below will testify.

    So ordered up some 188deg and 70deg off eBay JPL Models decent price free delivery.

    Poorly soldering the piston tubes in with 188, another hash up jig! Later after feedback found not enough flux used.


    Then soldered up the steam chest covers with 145deg and 70deg.

    Horn blocks now on top of their travel with the extra weight up front, meaning front now to low.

    Added weight around the weight of these tweezers would sort it or perhaps a spring of some sort.

    On to the motion bracket two blanks soldered together and shaping bye eye started with mini drill and cutting disk.

    Somewhere near and eyed up with Daves etched slide bars, debated cutting at pencil to make removable.

    Temporary soldered to frames with 70deg. more filing out to do to drop that connecting rod lower. But to much guessed from above it.

    They’ll have to be templates for a new set. Two more blanks soldered together.

    This is July I’m now back to work full time, a few shillings in my pocket Dave had used this motor and gearbox successfully by now so a present was bought for my model. Exciting times but the motion has to be finished first..

    New bench vice and a triple lamination made up for the motion bracket, template and the two new brass blanks,

    That’s 15
    Until next time

    Attached Files:

  11. AdeMoore

    AdeMoore Western Thunderer

    Ah 14 and a mistake!
  12. AdeMoore

    AdeMoore Western Thunderer

    To come up to date.
    Filed up brackets with the right spacing for the slide bars.


    Decided the bottom of the brackets needed to come off to facilitate removal as a unit with the cylinders.


    Oh dear I’ve known about this for a while, but went on with the motion brackets drivers left piston tube in line, left one miles out!

    Ready to desolder it, hair grips to act as heat sinks and hold the covers in place when they unsolder due to adjacent heat.

    Better ready for soldering. I notice the frames look banana! I don’t notice it when I’m working on it so I hope it’s the camera doing it. I’ll check next time I’m working on it.

    Not as neat as the left side but soldered and it will do.

    That’s it up to date.
    Assemble the slide bars,cylinders and motion brackets next.
    Until next time
  13. Scale7JB

    Scale7JB Western Thunderer

    Ade, if you look at picture number 4 in the above post it'll prove that the frames are way out and banana shaped. It may also be an idea to put the frames on some graph paper, and look down on them, this will show where any deformations are.

    It looks to be because of some heavy handling I think, but a good tweak might just be able to fix it.

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  14. AdeMoore

    AdeMoore Western Thunderer

    I think your assessment is bang on JB and the cause as if I look at earlier photos they were never that shape!
  15. simond

    simond Western Thunderer

    I’m not sure I agree. Photos can be very misleading, but to me the frames look “S” shaped.

    To fix this you will need to unsolder both ends, ensure the axle holes are aligned (use dummy axles and your proper con rods) and then resolder. The issue might be because you soldered one spacer onto each frame and then soldered the subassemblies together. This is likely to cause different expansion in the two frames. You need to try to heat both frames the same, so solder the spacer to one end of both frames, then the other spacer to the other end of both.

    Good luck!
  16. Scale7JB

    Scale7JB Western Thunderer

    Are you suggesting that when a piece of brass is heated and expands, that it 'doesn't return to its normal state' after it cools????

  17. simond

    simond Western Thunderer

    Er, no. I’m suggesting that it continues to cool, and therefore contract, after the solder has set. Perhaps I explained myself badly.

    As I said, it may be that I am misreading the photo, but it looks to me like the frames have each been soldered to a spacer, and have cooled. Then, when soldering the spacer to the other frame, it is easy to make the joint so it pulls out of true as it cools. This can have the effect of pulling the frames into a banana, or into an S, dependent on how unlucky you are. If an S, it is perfectly possible for the axles of an 0-4-0 to be parallel, and for the buffer beams to be parallel with one another, but not with the axles.

    My suggested solution is that heating the spacer and the ends both frames at the same time would eliminate any differential expansion, and that it would cool and contract evenly.

    daifly likes this.
  18. AdeMoore

    AdeMoore Western Thunderer

    First the curved frames as discussed above.
    This side spot on.

    The other side a dip in the middle soon fettled.
    09C35B9F-3A35-4342-815F-5239565F1552.jpeg 24A9693C-31E8-44E0-B92B-2B489909E647.jpeg

    Then the crossheads, Dave's fine etches a 4 layer laminatons I thought way to tricky for me so I thought solid brass easier. An electrician who’s a modeller always keeps these kinda bits.

    8268D445-7C97-4AA0-B32C-ED4104FC3F4C.jpeg 41AABD5A-1D82-461B-8BD9-0DCE73240B05.jpeg

    Filing flat then realised I didn’t have a saw blade thin enough to make the slots for the slide bars!


    Next tried some 0.5mm brass I made the frames from, intention soldering 2 top hat shapes together.


    Then I realised there was not enough meat in the middle for the connecting rod boss to fit between the halves! I could put plenty of solder in the middle and fatten it out, but decided to go back and face the tiny etches.
    133FC2DB-A5AA-4D51-81C5-D12E300C66CF.jpeg 1CFA3561-620F-4902-A0EB-CD3550C2F13A.jpeg

    Daves etches were 3 short in his gifted etch so I set about making those from spare etch.
    88549EE5-083F-4E19-961B-B844E7C8982D.jpeg 88549EE5-083F-4E19-961B-B844E7C8982D.jpeg 6ECFD463-0090-4271-BFD0-607D2503336E.jpeg 450099AC-0482-4143-A669-AAB516390100.jpeg CAD62DAF-7EBD-40DB-B110-0C12AC8E8DEA.jpeg

    So that’s where we are.
    Until next time

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: 4 November 2018
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  19. AdeMoore

    AdeMoore Western Thunderer

    Still on the motion, crossheads and slide bars. Minute update!
    9th December last time I did anything! The enthusiasm to get the motion done is seriously lacking!
    Soldering a fret piece to one of my blanks for filing to size.

    I noted now the fret for the slide bars Dave gave me didn’t match the cylinder cover, so it needs spreading to fit, Which is good as the crossheads don’t fit between them as they come off the fret and I’ve worked my blanks to that size.



    So that’s all I can show tonight!
    Sorry followers.
    More in the new year hopefully.
    Until next time
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  20. Ian_C

    Ian_C Western Thunderer

    Y'know, it reminds me of how I started out railway modelling, with hardly any tools, a lot of improvisation and no notion of what could or couldn't be done. Good on you! Keep going, the learning curve is steep but you don't half learn fast!

    It also reminds me that I intended to have a go at the MRJ WTC N05 project back in the day. Still have to parts I acquired to do it - except I ordered the wheels when I was still EM and before I got started I'd moved to P4. One day...
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