7mm US model dabblings

[mickoo]

Jim,

Re MP15DC glazing, your right, it's designed not to come out! There's four small black clips that hold the front and rear pieces in, pop those out and then I worked on the front piece and just pushed until it broke in the middle, you could score it with a craft knife on the inside first to 'persuade' it to break cleanly. Once the front is out then the sides come out by pushing the front quarter lights in and working the rest free, once they are out then the rear comes out but was still quite difficult until I took the rear light cluster out.

I'd already decided that I was going to flush glaze anyway so it didn't matter if it broke, I didn't like the look of all that glazing support inside and glass that's better suited to an armoured car. Plus, on the BNSF model they have painted some over in orange to represent the filled in ones and the paint wasn't going to come off them at all.

I'm also going to level the cab floor, add a false ceiling with a couple of surface mount LEDs behind and in the chassis, drill two small holes and try to replicate the rear bogie inspection lamps. Levelling the floor will mean a new control stand (or new base) but that's no hardship and inside the two rear lower windows I need to add the kick bar.

That's the plan anyway, haven't touched it for a while as I really must get these W1 frame etches sorted, hopefully off to PPD later this week, then I can get back to the MP15DC

Hope that helps.

Mick

 

[mickoo]

A good reference for quite a bit - but not all - anybody might have wanted to know about the modern U.S. outline freight car truck.

Standard Car Truck manual

Whoa! where did that gem come from

No excuse now not to 3D print and get it right

The works printer is getting a hammering tomorrow, especially as it prints in A3 Might also be able to lift those drawings as well into AutoCAD as I think it might be possible to work up an etch for the side frames with internal bracing. Etch can be a little crisp so you'd need to smooth off the edges to give it a bit of a cast feel.

 

[mickoo]

T'ain't nuttin....
They also just rest the whole car on the trucks; there's no equivalent of the retaining screw we use on our models to hold them on.
This has probably been posted before, but here's what happens when things go Tango Uniform...
(watch from 3:45 for the good bit!!)

Alledgedly the thinking behind the lack of retainer for truck to car is to prevent more damage to the individual components.

Jordan, I can sort of see the theory but wheel sets and bogies being flipped under a car are going to make one hell of a mess as they roll and bounce around underneath.

That's a good clip that demonstrates physics, or more to the point, what large masses does when you try to stop them, despite the low speed it just keeps going, though I'm surprised the rest of the train didn't go into emergency when the train pipe broke?

 

[Big Train James]

Retainers fitted........Retainers not fitted.

Sometimes on the same truck.

Looking at your pics of that container car truck, I wonder if the retainer has anything to do with the axle ends be individually sprung, as opposed to the suspension being at the bolster/sideframe interface. Absolutely just a swag there. Most everything else I see in the pictures has an equivalent counterpart on the North American truck. It looks like possibly the bolster and sideframes on the UK truck are one casting?

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Interesting stuff here.

Yes, I'm the one Steph alluded to in earlier posts looking at P48. I have a Red Caboose GP9 to build in P48 (SSW bloody nose livery) for which I already have the Northwest Shortline (NWSL) replacement 115 tread wheelset albeit to OF gauge. It wouldn't take much to re-gauge them to P48 as there is sufficient room on the axle to nudge the insulated wheel to the shoulder to the correct gauge.

Amongst other things I have are several PS-1 40' boxcars for conversion to SSW prototypes and an Atlas (Chessie System) International Wide Vision caboose for conversion to a SSW version. Oh yes, I have orders in for decals, P48 scale wheels (Protocraft), trucks and detail parts. Just looking whether to use San Juan or Protocraft couplers... and make them operate via the cut lever. As yet I haven't decided on the trackwork. Still more research to do....

The pictures below shows the difference between the original GP9 wheels and the replacement 40'' NWSL wheels (I ordered these before considering P48 as all those in the kit had split gears).

 

[Big Train James]

Whoa! where did that gem come from

No excuse now not to 3D print and get it right

The works printer is getting a hammering tomorrow, especially as it prints in A3 Might also be able to lift those drawings as well into AutoCAD as I think it might be possible to work up an etch for the side frames with internal bracing. Etch can be a little crisp so you'd need to smooth off the edges to give it a bit of a cast feel.

As long as you have a better printer than I had access to. The computer lab at school has a couple of decent Stratasys filament printers. I printed a 1:48 copy of the revised sideframe. It is okay but definitely rough and not usable. I'd be keen to see the results if printed on an SLA printer like a Form1 or something really capable.

What I showed above is as close to the prototype as I could get it, without concessions due to assembly practicalities or limitations in print quality. Overall I'd say the finished product is very close to accurate. However, it is based on data from any number of sources as nobody I contacted for drawings would cooperate. (This means you Candy Armstrong TechCare Engineering Support head that didn't even return my call ). The final model is an amalgamation of information gleaned from the SCTCO manual, multiple Car and Locomotive Cyclopedias, the Norfolk and Western Historical Society, lots of photos, and some crawling around underneath a car at the Colorado Railroad Museum in Golden. I finally had to concede that it would not quite be perfect but very close. A concession that also entailed a case of the hives, twitching of the eyes, insomnia, and general apoplexy. The revised truck (shown only in the colored drawing) added a lot of the details like the brake rigging, wear plates, and side bearings, and addressed most of the existing errors as I found more information after the fact. There are maybe three things I would fix now. The reality however is that over the years there is such a tremendous variety of truck styles cast by any number of foundries under license, that I can't even say my version isn't right on. Of course there are several modifications I would pursue for the practical purposes of use in the model railroad environment.

If you like, which I think I know the answer to already, I can send you my cad file and save you quite a bit of time and effort. I suppose I would prefer that you don't claim it as your own or commercialize it (because after all, that's what I want to do ). Or maybe we can collaborate somehow to get the thing printed, or cast, or injection molded, or die cast. I expect I'll be hearing from you.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[Big Train James]

Interesting stuff here.

Yes, I'm the one Steph alluded to in earlier posts looking at P48.

Hi Dave,
I have the same problem deciding between the two gauges as well. I plan on hand laying my track, so part of me says if that's the case why not lay it to the correct gauge. But then on the flip side, I've just gotten involved with an O scale club here in Colorado that while having some p48 members, clearing is pursuing 5'-0" gauge for their new modular layout. On the pro side, I don't have a huge collection of stock that would need conversion, so not as much money goes straight out the window.

There is a lot of noise on some of the forums I frequent about the slow death spiral of the model railroad hobby, doubly amplified for O scale as it's already a small niche in the whole market. I believe that the track gauge issue is one that will prevent new blood migrating to O from HO and N as it just won't make any sense to them why it isn't just correct already. Between gauge issues, proprietary control systems, and a general lack of accurate, modern engines and stock, it can be hard to convince somebody to give up the cornucopia that is HO and switch to O.

If I can be of any help as I'm in the states, please feel free to ask. Btw, have you seen the build by Ed Nadolski for a Red Caboose gp9 in p48? It's really a nice project.

Ed Nadolski p48 Red Caboose Gp9 build

Regards,
Jim

 

[Big Train James]

".....creative chaos is better than tidy idleness....."

You've seen my desk then have you?

 

[Jordan or Plymouth Mad]

I read that "if you hand lay track why do it to the wrong gauge?" argument myself. For myself it's as I intimated before; the added cost of re-wheeling everything, & the extra (albeit relatively simple) work involved. I just want to be able to run some nice models, preferably in my own lifetime, & US O is different enough already in the UK without going to extremes.
American O scale (2-rail) is not helped by the dominance of 3-rail (distinguished as "O Gauge" in the US) & Transition Era (1940's/50's). 2-rail is a small minority within a minority scale. There is nothing like the variety of HO & N models available; in fact the more I look at locos available the more amazed I am at how many I've managed to get appropriate for my Soo Line collection!!
But, much like UK O scale, once you've got O scale models, the smaller scales just seem so... small..!!

 

[mickoo]

Sometimes on the same truck.

Looking at your pics of that container car truck, I wonder if the retainer has anything to do with the axle ends be individually sprung, as opposed to the suspension being at the bolster/sideframe interface. Absolutely just a swag there. Most everything else I see in the pictures has an equivalent counterpart on the North American truck. It looks like possibly the bolster and sideframes on the UK truck are one casting?

Jim,

Yes it is one casting and the axle box clips are to prevent the wheel set becoming detached in a derailment.

And no I won't steal your work, plagarize or any of the above LOL, I've more than enough projects to leave a modern truck well alone for the experts to do, a CAD file would be of no use to me, I only use CAD in 2D, for 3D I use 3DSM9, but I'm more than willing to pick over your work if you need a second input.

 

[InvernessTMD]

Hello,... I have an A3 printer if anyone needs stuff printing (provided I have the software you use)...

 

[mickoo]

If I can be of any help as I'm in the states, please feel free to ask. Btw, have you seen the build by Ed Nadolski for a Red Caboose gp9 in p48? It's really a nice project.

Ed Nadolski p48 Red Caboose Gp9 build

Regards,
Jim

I hadn't seen this one, the only other GP9 I'd see had a full nose, I've had a quick flick and spotted one good tip, that of the shutter vanes, I've been vexing that one for a couple of years now on how to etch vanes that when shut overlap, specifically for my Class 40, even to the point of individual vanes soldered to 0.5 mm wire and inserted one at a time.

Ed very cleverly only etches the odd ones on one etch and the evens on another and just off sets the two etches to give a constant row. A very neat solution

 

[Steph Dale]

The shutter vanes are a pretty good approach, although when they're hidden behind the mesh, backed by a radiator and dirty I think I'll stick with using Evergreen planking sheet on my Geeps. A Judith Edge diesel kit had a similar method of forming the grilles and that worked too - keeping the vanes flat while twisting them in the frame can be a little tricky!

Incidentally, I've got a load of info on GP9 details and a client working in 0-scale who wants multi-layer etched grillework, fan hatches and grilles and a host of other parts (including a brass frame), spec should be sorted over the next week or so allowing me to start drafting the parts. Personally, I quite fancy a high-hood GP20...

Steph

 

[mickoo]

On a GP9 then yes they do loose their visual impact behind the mesh, but a Class 40 without frost grill is totally exposed and the MP15 front grill is also very open, much more open than the etching in the kit.

I quite fancy a chop nose SD24, UP had a few and some B units, it's all the louvred doors that puts one off

 

[Steph Dale]

SD24 would certainly be cool. I don't know if one is available, although I don't even know whether an SD7 or 9 is available. Mind you, it's only at first glance that they would appear to be a good starting point for a conversion...

Steph

 

[Big Train James]

The shutter vanes are a pretty good approach, although when they're hidden behind the mesh, backed by a radiator and dirty I think I'll stick with using Evergreen planking sheet on my Geeps. A Judith Edge diesel kit had a similar method of forming the grilles and that worked too - keeping the vanes flat while twisting them in the frame can be a little tricky!

Incidentally, I've got a load of info on GP9 details and a client working in 0-scale who wants multi-layer etched grillework, fan hatches and grilles and a host of other parts (including a brass frame), spec should be sorted over the next week or so allowing me to start drafting the parts. Personally, I quite fancy a high-hood GP20...

Steph

Steph, I presume you're familiar with P&D, Des Plaines Hobbies, and PSC for detail parts? Also, Des Plaines has, or had, replacement brass frames for the Red Caboose gp9 to alleviate the sagging frame issue. And now there is a gent on the OGR forum that has just started selling a machined aluminum frame for the same purpose.

Kelly Regan's site

OGR forum post illustrating the frame

Also between P&D and Des Plaines you can find quite a few parts to convert the Red Caboose (and I presume Atlas as well) gp9 to a gp20. It's on my long list of things to do as well, although a more typical low nose Burlington Northern unit. I think the Western Pacific was the only road to roster the high short hood gp20.

My goal one day in the future....

Jim

 

[Big Train James]

SD24 would certainly be cool. I don't know if one is available, although I don't even know whether an SD7 or 9 is available. Mind you, it's only at first glance that they would appear to be a good starting point for a conversion...

Steph

Either the sd7 or 9, or both, are available from the likes of MTH and Lionel at the moment. In other words, more in the "toy train" 3-rail mold. Of questionable prototype fidelity though as is often the case with these manufacturers. There are also versions of these available in brass. And now Sunset is producing the 7/9 series for delivery later this year. These latest versions should be the best available to date.

I don't know if anybody other than maybe in brass has produced an sd24 yet. It would be a logical extension of the sd7/9 series of locomotives as the drive and a decent amount of the tooling would translate. B units would definitely be cool too.

 

[Big Train James]

As an aside, I was reading back through this thread and I saw it mentioned that P&D did not offer their very nice Blomberg trucks for separate sale. I believe that is incorrect. They still appear on the P&D website, but under the detailing parts tab instead of the drive components tab. Part numbers are PDP4720 and PDP4730. Page two in the P&D sub section of the detailing parts tab. Btw, I'm believe the drive featured in the OGR forum link above uses the P&D brass Blombergs..

Jim

 

[Big Train James]

......and the MP15 front grill is also very open, much more open than the etching in the kit.

Open....


Closed....mostly...


In HO...Athearn Blue Box rework...

 

[mickoo]

Open....
View attachment 46055

Closed....mostly...
View attachment 46057

In HO...Athearn Blue Box rework...
View attachment 46058

Jim,

When I meant open I was talking about the grill construction which looks like 6mm bar just spot welded at intersections to retain rigidity, as opposed to the model etch work where the grill (through necessity due to scaling) is much thicker and restricts the view of the fan.

Back to Stephs etch work, your right there are a great many parts already available in the US, but the cost of imports, excise and availability often means it's easier to 'roll your own' in some cases, especially things like tread plate, fan covers and the such like.

It doesn't mean that the parts already available are not for for use, just that the practicalities of doing it yourself make life easier, an order to PPD will almost certainly be on your door mat in less than a week of ordering.

Interesting information on the Blombergs, they do look nice.

All the best

Mick