Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
Coming along nicely Mike, progress may be slow but it is progress! When I was looking for some brass split pins I struggled to find any for sale on tinterweb.
7mm Ressaldar's Workshop - a paintshop diversion
- Thread starter Ressaldar
- Start date
Coming along nicely Mike, progress may be slow but it is progress! When I was looking for some brass split pins I struggled to find any for sale on tinterweb.
Ressaldar
Western Thunderer
a update of this mornings efforts and bearing in mind Heather's timely warning about doing the bodging before fitting the trusses etc, I proceeded with...........................
........... my cunning plan of how to hold the body onto the chassis without using the JLTRT roof bolt fixing method.
Having first marked out the centreline of the chassis and then of the coach end, the brass plate was scribed using the leading edge of the end casting and then filed to shape to fit snug to the inner profile. Checking what width there was to 'play with' the underside of the end was marked and drilled for 10BA clearance, the plate was lined up on the inside and the drill was pushed through to mark the plate which was then drilled 10BA tapping and then tapped. As the buffer beam fits flush to the underside of the end, countersunk screws were fitted - (shorter ones will be purchased at Telford). The underside of the chassis was inspected for suitable locations for the other pair of screws to be located and there is an ideal 'pocket' behind the coupling hook hole in the buffer beam (photo to come later) and again, 10BA clearance holes were drilled 6mm either side of the centreline with the 'locating procedure' repeated - correct engineering procedure, but it works for me.
Once the shorter screws are fitted and the ends have been attacked for the fitting of the new windows, I think that I will epoxy these end screws in as a bit of belts and braces.
You will note that I have retained the 'roof bolt screw assemblies' as the hold the 'false floor' in position (the floor is trimmed back to allow my fixing plate to be flush with the floor and the end casting - the etched line adjacent to the 'nut' is where the end partition fits and like Heather with her first Collett, the partition is solid so the glazed areas will have to formed in a similar fashion
more to come later - hopefully
cheers
Mike
........... my cunning plan of how to hold the body onto the chassis without using the JLTRT roof bolt fixing method.
Having first marked out the centreline of the chassis and then of the coach end, the brass plate was scribed using the leading edge of the end casting and then filed to shape to fit snug to the inner profile. Checking what width there was to 'play with' the underside of the end was marked and drilled for 10BA clearance, the plate was lined up on the inside and the drill was pushed through to mark the plate which was then drilled 10BA tapping and then tapped. As the buffer beam fits flush to the underside of the end, countersunk screws were fitted - (shorter ones will be purchased at Telford). The underside of the chassis was inspected for suitable locations for the other pair of screws to be located and there is an ideal 'pocket' behind the coupling hook hole in the buffer beam (photo to come later) and again, 10BA clearance holes were drilled 6mm either side of the centreline with the 'locating procedure' repeated - correct engineering procedure, but it works for me.
Once the shorter screws are fitted and the ends have been attacked for the fitting of the new windows, I think that I will epoxy these end screws in as a bit of belts and braces.
You will note that I have retained the 'roof bolt screw assemblies' as the hold the 'false floor' in position (the floor is trimmed back to allow my fixing plate to be flush with the floor and the end casting - the etched line adjacent to the 'nut' is where the end partition fits and like Heather with her first Collett, the partition is solid so the glazed areas will have to formed in a similar fashion
more to come later - hopefully
cheers
Mike
Ressaldar
Western Thunderer
a quick lunch and
end Number 2 is done with the 'to use' end - the windows are not the final ones, they just happen to be almost in the correct position - the side and bottom anyway, and Laurie sent them as 'spares' knowing what I was attempting, the one shown in the earlier photos was used as a test piece.
here is the underside showing the location of the bolts
both ends 'assembled'
and two shots of what is to come - the new door goes just to the right of the masking tape, above the 'gap' in the pipe on the solebar and there are two windows to go in to the right of that door and the existing double doors disappear.
on this side, again the double doors disappear and a new door goes in where the narrow window is at present.
Just pushing the coach along the track indicates that a thin spacer is needed on the bolsters to take the wheels from rubbing the underside of the chassis.
All in all, an encouraging days work.
cheers
Mike
end Number 2 is done with the 'to use' end - the windows are not the final ones, they just happen to be almost in the correct position - the side and bottom anyway, and Laurie sent them as 'spares' knowing what I was attempting, the one shown in the earlier photos was used as a test piece.
here is the underside showing the location of the bolts
both ends 'assembled'
and two shots of what is to come - the new door goes just to the right of the masking tape, above the 'gap' in the pipe on the solebar and there are two windows to go in to the right of that door and the existing double doors disappear.
on this side, again the double doors disappear and a new door goes in where the narrow window is at present.
Just pushing the coach along the track indicates that a thin spacer is needed on the bolsters to take the wheels from rubbing the underside of the chassis.
All in all, an encouraging days work.
cheers
Mike
lancer1027
Western Thunderer
Coming on a treat Mike
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
Splendid work. Following this with interest. 
Ressaldar
Western Thunderer
Hi Tony,
unfortunately, the only similarity is that they both have three windows
the LMS end is flat and the GWR one is curved, with the windows fitted on a tangent as can just be seen here
picture by Andrew Thompson of this parish.
A brass skin might be the answer but as the frames seem to have been (crudely) welded in (I have bought some of Archers resin weld decals) I think that the answer might be three separate (plastic) frames inserted into one large 'hole', there is a good sized rib on the edge of the casting as can be seen in the first 'post lunch' posting to retain the overall integrity of the whole end, so I think that by using one of the 'spare' castings for guinea pig and prototype work, I should come up with the right answer. The big problem is getting the size of the widow right in the first place. By going down this tack, I will not need to form any rebates, they will only be required in the new windows - but I have a couple of spare sides from other Colletts that Laurie sent, so it may be another 'cut and shuffle' exercise for those as well as the two new doors.
The resin material is very good to work, a good set of files and a selection of sharp scalpel blades and a lot of patience is needed.
The coach as seen above also highlights the fact that this is a 'Retro' preservation - as outshopped from Swindon in 1962 and not as it was in later service - with air horns below the buffer beam, heater vents down the other side and possibly, no screen to form the lobby immediately behind the end windows. I'm hoping to see Pete Waterman (he bought it from British Rail in the 90s) at Telford, to see if he has any drawings etc as I have no idea as to how the interior is fitted out.
Hopefully the buffer beams today, once a few household chores are sorted (brownie points to go to Telford)
cheers
Mike
unfortunately, the only similarity is that they both have three windows
the LMS end is flat and the GWR one is curved, with the windows fitted on a tangent as can just be seen here picture by Andrew Thompson of this parish.
A brass skin might be the answer but as the frames seem to have been (crudely) welded in (I have bought some of Archers resin weld decals) I think that the answer might be three separate (plastic) frames inserted into one large 'hole', there is a good sized rib on the edge of the casting as can be seen in the first 'post lunch' posting to retain the overall integrity of the whole end, so I think that by using one of the 'spare' castings for guinea pig and prototype work, I should come up with the right answer. The big problem is getting the size of the widow right in the first place. By going down this tack, I will not need to form any rebates, they will only be required in the new windows - but I have a couple of spare sides from other Colletts that Laurie sent, so it may be another 'cut and shuffle' exercise for those as well as the two new doors.
The resin material is very good to work, a good set of files and a selection of sharp scalpel blades and a lot of patience is needed.
The coach as seen above also highlights the fact that this is a 'Retro' preservation - as outshopped from Swindon in 1962 and not as it was in later service - with air horns below the buffer beam, heater vents down the other side and possibly, no screen to form the lobby immediately behind the end windows. I'm hoping to see Pete Waterman (he bought it from British Rail in the 90s) at Telford, to see if he has any drawings etc as I have no idea as to how the interior is fitted out.
Hopefully the buffer beams today, once a few household chores are sorted (brownie points to go to Telford)
cheers
Mike
ZiderHead
Western Thunderer
Those ends appear to be quite a complex shape from the pics I have - a combination of 3 angled sections but curved by varying amounts from top to bottom in plan, and thats before the inspection windows were added ...
They also seem to curve in towards the bottom in elevation (or is that just an optical illusion?)
They also seem to curve in towards the bottom in elevation (or is that just an optical illusion?)
Ressaldar
Western Thunderer
Hi Jon,
yes they are not as straight forward as is at first seen.
What you have to remember is that the 'donor' vehicle was a bow ended restaurant coach and as such, had corridor connections and thus was 'flat' in the centre section when looking in plan and to overcome this, it appears that they simply sheeted the ends over with a single skin having first put in a few shaped ribs/bearers in the centre to take up the slack. This then raised the problem of how to overcome the problem of using a flat surface - glass, on a radius plan surface - the answer is to use an angled timber mullion each side of the centre window which is fixed so that it is at right angles to the sideframe and as far forward on the 'cill' as possible, then each side window would be fixed in a similar fashion, thus enabling the use of flat glass.
Without the original plans, it's anybody's guess , I think at the end of the day, it will come down to personal acceptance. On quite a few photos that I have, it is quite clear that there is a slight overhang/cill where the straight line (tangent?) is above and below each window, it is this that is the basis of what I am trying to overcome.
This is the start of my working out - does not look much at present, but I'll get there, it's just a question of perseverance.
As I said earlier, I'll try and have a chat with Pete Waterman at Telford and see if he has any knowledge of drawings etc.
Thanks for raising the point
Mike
yes they are not as straight forward as is at first seen.
What you have to remember is that the 'donor' vehicle was a bow ended restaurant coach and as such, had corridor connections and thus was 'flat' in the centre section when looking in plan and to overcome this, it appears that they simply sheeted the ends over with a single skin having first put in a few shaped ribs/bearers in the centre to take up the slack. This then raised the problem of how to overcome the problem of using a flat surface - glass, on a radius plan surface - the answer is to use an angled timber mullion each side of the centre window which is fixed so that it is at right angles to the sideframe and as far forward on the 'cill' as possible, then each side window would be fixed in a similar fashion, thus enabling the use of flat glass.
Without the original plans, it's anybody's guess , I think at the end of the day, it will come down to personal acceptance. On quite a few photos that I have, it is quite clear that there is a slight overhang/cill where the straight line (tangent?) is above and below each window, it is this that is the basis of what I am trying to overcome.
This is the start of my working out - does not look much at present, but I'll get there, it's just a question of perseverance.
As I said earlier, I'll try and have a chat with Pete Waterman at Telford and see if he has any knowledge of drawings etc.
Thanks for raising the point
Mike
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
Hi Mike, it's good to see the Mojo is back in force
See you on Saturday.
See you on Saturday.
Ressaldar
Western Thunderer
At Telford over the weekend, I took the opportunity of asking Pete Waterman if he had any drawings of this coach - unfortunately, the answer was no but he did say that he had numerous photos which he said he would send - I'm therefore putting the 'build' on hold for a few weeks - just in case he remembers to send them.
and that they show something that I've managed to c**k up
in the meantime.
cheers
Mike
and that they show something that I've managed to c**k up in the meantime. cheers
Mike
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
Don't leave it too long Mike, you don't want wandering Mojo......
Ressaldar
Western Thunderer
a pleasant surprise at the end of last week was that one of our Club members called to say that he was planning a visit to the East Lancs Railway - (the home of KDW1502660) and asked me if I needed any pictures or information gathering while he was there - I mean, does the Pope have a balcony?
Here are some of the photographs that he came back with:
end on and suitable for reference with the measurements that were taken
the small 'saloon' - I cannot believe that the upholstery was that that was used when in service, nor the pink curtains - bear in mind that he coach has been restored to 1962 condition (as in the photo in Jim Russell's book)
the large 'saloon' end
the large 'saloon' end looking from the screen doorway
reversing mirror
bufferbeam detail - including airpipe for the horns
the biggest surprise of the day - an order for Guilplates is on the cards. Could the angle strip in the foreground be classed as a 'canard' to improve airflow?
The other bonus is that the settees and chairs are identical to those in the Q13 Orion kit, so an enquiry/order has gone off the Jerry Colebrook requesting a set.
I am well into the Q13 at the moment - photos and thread update to come soon, so I'll be coming back to this build in due course.
cheers
Mike
Here are some of the photographs that he came back with:
end on and suitable for reference with the measurements that were taken
the small 'saloon' - I cannot believe that the upholstery was that that was used when in service, nor the pink curtains
- bear in mind that he coach has been restored to 1962 condition (as in the photo in Jim Russell's book)the large 'saloon' end
the large 'saloon' end looking from the screen doorway
reversing mirror
bufferbeam detail - including airpipe for the horns
the biggest surprise of the day - an order for Guilplates is on the cards. Could the angle strip in the foreground be classed as a 'canard' to improve airflow?
The other bonus is that the settees and chairs are identical to those in the Q13 Orion kit, so an enquiry/order has gone off the Jerry Colebrook requesting a set.
I am well into the Q13 at the moment - photos and thread update to come soon, so I'll be coming back to this build in due course.
cheers
Mike
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
That's a good set of photos. I love your "canard" comment!