A tale of a pair of 1361s

Phil O

Western Thunderer
Constructing a pair of CSP Models 1361 kits in 4mm EM gauge.

EDIT, if anyone uses this for constructing these kits, I would suggest you read it all the way through, to avoid some of the pitfalls that I have found.

So far I have soldered up all the coupling rods and opened up the first pair to suit my Hobby Holidays chassis jig and assembled the first pair of frames.

1361 side rods 1.jpg

1361 chassis 1.jpg

1361 chassis 2.jpg

I fitted some Romford Wheels to get a rolling chassis and check that it would negotiate the curves on Pottery Quay Pottery Quay. EM test track / shunting plank. Please note the wheels are not correct for this loco, I just wanted to check, all was well !

1361 rolling chassis.jpg

Having successfully done that I took the wheels off prior to having a look at fitting the cylinders and slide bars for clearance, at this point the swearing started as I had fitted the bearings incorrectly for the motor and gearbox and consequently for the front drivers, getting the bearings out was the easy bit, refitting them correctly was a right pain in the proverbial, which led to a lot more choice language. It took two sessions to get the back in.

All done now! I must ensure that I get the right in the 2nd build.
 
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Phil O

Western Thunderer
I have now got the 2nd chassis to the same state as the first IE. a rolling chassis.

1361 2 rolling chassis.jpg


I have located the slide bar brackets temporarily to check how much space there is for the crosshead and the coupling rods, at first glance, it appears there is enough.

The loose spacer has been soldered up.
 

Phil O

Western Thunderer
The next move is to make up the cylinders and slide bars.

Cylinder 2.jpg

I was not happy with the lack of support for the piston rod, so I cut a length of 0.8mm bore tube to length. To hold it in place while I soldered it, I modified a couple of cocktail sticks to suit the hole in the tube and the holes in the cylinder faces. One stick was put in the vice the cylinder threaded on and then the tube and the other stick was then inserted at the other end, see the above picture.

Once all four cylinders are done it will be on to adding the gland packing castings.
 

Phil O

Western Thunderer
Now that I'm back in the club room, I have progressed the 1361s.

1361 1.jpg
1st cylinder fitted, with crosshead. I fitted the other one and then realized that with the nut fitted to the cylinder, I wouldn't be able to remove them as there isn't enough space to get the bolts in, so out with the hot stick and remove the nuts. The bolts were shortened and fitted to the cylinders. Fortunately I noticed the faux par before I fitted the wrappers.



1361 3.jpg

All ready for the wrappers.

I forgot to take photos, before the chassis went to the paint shop. I primed and sprayed the chassis before I went to visit my mother yesterday, so that they will be ready for wheeling upon my return on Tuesday.
 

Phil O

Western Thunderer
Well, I'm not a happy bunny, I have put one of the two chassis down somewhere and now I can't find it. Here's are photos of the remaining chassis before wheeling.

1361 6.jpg

1361 7.jpg

As you can see I needed a bit of filler on the LH cylinder wrapper, due to a dent I put in it whilst forming, the ragged edge will hopefully be hidden by the running plate, I didn't notice it until I saw the picture, the bright sunlight enhances the edge and the cameras all seeing eye has picked it up.

The chassis is now wheeled.

1361 8.jpg
The gearbox assembly was pretty straight forward, the only set back was dropping the final drive gear wheel grub screw as a sacrifice to the carpet god. A quick phone call to Chris Gibbons has resulted in replacements, in the meantime I pinched the grub screw from the other gearbox.

The motor was tried before fitting and gets a little warm, especially in one direction, I have oiled the drive shaft end bearing and that I hope may lead to some improvement. The motor was then run with the gearbox attached, but the final drive grub screw left out, all ran sweetly although no changes to the motor temperature. The grub screw was fitted and the motor stalled, so I wit drew the axle and put the reamer through the bearings of the gearbox chassis combination, it was during this process that I lost the grub screw. Reassembled and a little oil on the bearing and all ran sweetly.

The wheeling process followed and was not without some foul language, when I managed to wreck the centre of two of the wheels, the first when fitting the driven wheels to the axle and the 2nd to the centre drivers. Again the 2nd kit has provided replacements as a tide me over. The plastic centres are not very forgiving if you don't get them just so.

I offered the cylinders up and there appears to be plenty of room for the coupling rods, crosshead and con rod assembly, but I haven't yet summoned up the courage to try the chassis with coupling rods. I just pushed the chassis along the track on my prototypical 2 chain curve and I think all will be well especially after the check rail has been fitted.

I made a start on the upper works by laminating the footplate, it now needs cleaning up.

1361 9.jpg
Not a particularly easy process, getting the various upright bits to fit through the slots and being thin flimsy brass and a fairly large area to solder.
 

Phil O

Western Thunderer
A little more progress this morning, I have fitted the coupling rods to make it a 4 coupled engine, it ran reasonably smoothly with the motor driven axle and the centre axle, much to my relief, with the pair coupled there was a tight spot, but a quick application of a broach cured that. so the first job tomorrow will be to assemble it as a 0-6-0 for the first time.
 

Phil O

Western Thunderer
Not happy and ready to pull my hair out, I can happily push the chassis backwards and forwards, once I had eased the holes, but as soon as I do up the grub screw on the final drive gear and run the motor, it runs for a few revolutions and then twists itself up in knots. I get the feeling that one of the wheels is twisting on the centre axle, but I can't see which one or how to stop it. The only thing which is currently going through my mind is to pull the wheels off and dab a bit of 603 loctite on the axle ends before refitting the wheels. It's the first time I have used Gibson wheels in anger and don't want to muck them up, especially as they are not currently available, awaiting production of another batch.

Any feed back would be appreciated on the way forward.
 

Phil O

Western Thunderer
Hi Steph,

No, I have only fitted them using the GW wheel press. Not sure on how to go about drilling the axles now I have the wheels fitted.
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
Hi Steph,

No, I have only fitted them using the GW wheel press. Not sure on how to go about drilling the axles now I have the wheels fitted.

I've had to do this once or twice. The elegant way (and I think a version of this was published in MRJ a while ago EDIT: it was MRJ 229, p. 68 by Mark Humphrys) is to add keyways to the axle and pin it that way. Another - and this is Chris Pendlenton's approach - is to recentre and bush the wheels in the lathe (described in his account of re-working a Bachmann Ivatt class 4, again in MRJ EDIT: MRJ 175, p. 122 onwards).

What I've done a couple of times is what Guy Williams suggested and that's to drill at an angle between the spokes into the axle and to either Loctite or epoxy a pin in the hole. Powered mini-drill if you're brave, pin vice if you're not. It's definitely best done using aa new drill though. Fixed the slipping driven Ultrascales on a Bachmann 66xx conversion a treat.*

Adam

*NB, that was on a conversion set with a moulded collar acting as a spacer on the back: I drilled through that, a 'normal' set might be a bit trickier.
 

Phil O

Western Thunderer
Hi Adam

I will see if I have those MRJ's in my collection, If not I will give the Guy Williams method a go, I have a packet of fresh 0.45 mm drills and 0.45 mm wire.
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
My approach is to drill the axle before assembly; it's pretty straightforward to go through from the side of the axle into the end.

Then fit and quarter the wheels (yes, the GW jig is my favoured weapon) and then pass a drill back through the hole into the wheel, before fixing a wire pin using epoxy. I'd usually use something like 0.5mm.

Steph
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
My approach is to drill the axle before assembly; it's pretty straightforward to go through from the side of the axle into the end.

Then fit and quarter the wheels (yes, the GW jig is my favoured weapon) and then pass a drill back through the hole into the wheel, before fixing a wire pin using epoxy. I'd usually use something like 0.5mm.

Steph

I like that - and I'll give that a go.

Adam
 

Phil O

Western Thunderer
The Gibson wheels were included in the kit and I have several more kits to build, which have Gibson wheels, so I have bitten the bullet and am giving them a go and as it's for me, if it goes totally pear shaped, it's only me and my ineptitude to blame.

I can understand your point of view as a professional kit builder, you don't want to be wasting time doing remedial work, but I like a bit of a challenge and broaden my skills set, its all part of the hobby, even if it does do my head in from time to time and lead to a lot of foul language.
 

Phil O

Western Thunderer
Well a lot of swearing and other foul language has ensued, the destructions say open out the holes in front of the tabs and fit the springs into the footplate, well as you can see there are no holes in said footplate, although there is a small extension between the tabs with a hole in. The centre of the spring which attaches to the axle box on the real thing fits the hole and the tabs align with the spring hangers, so I broke the tabs off and soldered the springs into the holes and put a fillet of solder under the footplate to hold the hangers.

1361 10.jpg
The next bit is to bend down the sides of the cab floor to give a snug fit in the cab, I folded them as required and the floor sat nicely over the cab side sheets, so I cut the sides off and fettled the floor and added the sides, just right. The destructions now say open up the holes in the cab floor and fit the cab springs to the 4th plank. There's a hole in the 3rd plank on the drivers side, but nothing on the left side. On offering up the footplate with the cab floor up to the chassis, the closest I could get to the springs over the trailing axle was to fit them on the 1st and 2nd planks as shown in the above photo. I flushed the feeder sprue off and tinned the bottom of the springs, before fitting them.

1361 11.jpg


So there we have my best efforts at getting the springs fitted, at least they appear to be pretty much in a line, but I suspect may be to far inboard.

I'm not sure how much more punishment the etched reversing lever is going to take each time the floor goes in and out. I may see if I can source a casting or knock something up as it is somewhat malnourished, anyway.
 

Phil O

Western Thunderer
I rang Dave at Southeastern Finecast and he's going to cast me a couple of reversing levers. Hopefully a preemptive measure.
 

Phil O

Western Thunderer
Onwards and downwards, with the rest of the cab, the cab part of the bunker was folded up and the tip up seats fitted, I tinned the seat spigots before I removed them from the fret.

1361 12.jpg

And the cab back sheet, I found it easier to fit the back sheet first and then slid the front of the bunker down in front of it, as there are no tabs on the bunker, to align it with the side sheet. Although some numpty filed off one of the tabs on the back sheet before he realized what it was. I did find that when I did a dry run with the back sheet that the holes in the footplate that align the bunker that the slots in the two parts of the footplate don't line up, if I'd noticed this when I put the footplate together, I could have checked which layer had the slots wrong and made it easier to correct. I tend to tin the tabs before fitting as this seems to aid soldering, yes I did do the others before fitting. The back sheet of the bunker was fitted and all the tabs filled smooth and the cab side sheets and the bunker were tinned with 145 C solder prior to fitting the overlays.

1361 15.jpg

1361 16.jpg

I then bent and offered up the overlays, prior to fluxing and soldering.

1361 17.jpg

Using cocktail sticks to check that everything was properly aligned, I was well chuffed with forming the bends in the bunker sheets, I envisioned lots of problems. The destructions advised bending around a 2 mm drill and using the little notches at the top and bottom as the centre line for the bend. I then removed the overlays and fluxed everything and then used the RSU to solder it all up.

I then washed it and whilst allowing it to dry, I tinned up the beading strips whilst still on the etch, saves on singed fingers and the swearing.

1361 18.jpg

I forgot to take a piccy of the completed work.
 
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Phil O

Western Thunderer
Here is the photo that I should have taken and put in the previous post.

1361 17a.jpg

Oh damn, I've still not done the beading around the cab openings, I wonder where I put the beading!
 
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Phil O

Western Thunderer
Some progress on the 1361 whilst the Mod Podge dries, see Pottery Quay layout thread for details.

Next up the cab fittings, such as they are, again the destructions are somewhat ambiguous. The destructions mention fitting the gauge glass, but as you can see there's not one supplied and there's clearly one on the backhead.

1361 19.jpg

Here's what is supplied

1361 20.jpg

And fitted together and attached to the floor. I'm not sure what the round bits are above the fire hole door, they don't show up on any photos of backheads, that I have found.

1361 21.jpg

After priming and a coat of paint, the close up photo, shows the orange peel finish to the cab floor, which is hardly visible to the eye. The lever reverser is from SE Finecast, filed down and fitted over the slot for the etched item which the etched item should fit through. It's now in the paint shop for detail painting, as best I can. The pipework for the whistles are a bit chunky, but hopefully it will be lost in the gloom along with the other dodgy bits.
 
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